Simultaneous 5-Axis Precision Deburr Application Help

Johnny SolidWorks · Apr 26, 2017

Good Evening All

I'm looking at a precision deburr application (aerospace customer) and the part geometry necessitates a simultaneous 5-Axis operation. The parts range from fairly small (would fit in a 2 inch cube) up to 18 inch rectangles, 4 to 5 inches thick.

To stave off everyone saying "do it another way dummy!" we can pretend I'm not a complete idiot, and that there are very valid reasons to consider purchasing an entire, brand-new, simultaneous 5-axis machining center, to do nothing other than deburr parts.

Cycle time is important on all parts (isn't it always?) so a higher speed spindle and quick rapids are important. Since it's only going to be running a chamfer mill (with relatively light chamfers at that) I'm not too concerned about machine rigidity.

Probably makes sense to gang-up the smaller parts (since the cycle time for the deburr process is likely about the same amount of time as loading/unloading the machine.) So I'm looking at those 4-up 5C collet rotaries. Make sense? Are there better options for a quick load/unload with this type of setup? About the only way to hold these parts that makes sense is to use an ID grip (whether an outward acting gripper/chuck, arbor, mandrel, whatever.) A custom solution isn't out of the question, if it's necessary.

The only advantage a larger ATC will give me is being able to hold more chamfer mills, so it's not really a priority, right?

What am I not thinking about that I should be? What am I worried about that I shouldn't be?

Edit: We're a certified 6-axis robot integrator, and already tried a robot for this exact application, and were not at all happy with the results. I wasn't involved with that phase of the project, so there may have been other issues I'm not aware of, but I have some confidence that if a robot mounted spindle was a good solution for this application, the guys on the project would have made it work.

Edit #2: This machine is going into a 24/7/365 manufacturing facility, and throughput is huge. Might very well wind up being robot-tended.

Thanks All!

EnderDRM · Apr 26, 2017

Johnny SolidWorks said:
Good Evening All

I'm looking at a precision deburr application (aerospace customer) and the part geometry necessitates a simultaneous 5-Axis operation. The parts range from fairly small (would fit in a 2 inch cube) up to 18 inch rectangles, 4 to 5 inches thick.

To stave off everyone saying "do it another way dummy!" we can pretend I'm not a complete idiot, and that there are very valid reasons to consider purchasing an entire, brand-new, simultaneous 5-axis machining center, to do nothing other than deburr parts.

Cycle time is important on all parts (isn't it always?) so a higher speed spindle and quick rapids are important. Since it's only going to be running a chamfer mill (with relatively light chamfers at that) I'm not too concerned about machine rigidity.

Probably makes sense to gang-up the smaller parts (since the cycle time for the deburr process is likely about the same amount of time as loading/unloading the machine.) So I'm looking at those 4-up 5C collet rotaries. Make sense? Are there better options for a quick load/unload with this type of setup? About the only way to hold these parts that makes sense is to use an ID grip (whether an outward acting gripper/chuck, arbor, mandrel, whatever.) A custom solution isn't out of the question, if it's necessary.

The only advantage a larger ATC will give me is being able to hold more chamfer mills, so it's not really a priority, right?

What am I not thinking about that I should be? What am I worried about that I shouldn't be?

Thanks All!
You should check out Kirsan Engineering in Pleasant Prairie, WI.

bryan_machine · Apr 27, 2017

5-axis robot instead of 5-axis VMC?

Johnny SolidWorks · Apr 27, 2017

bryan_machine said:
5-axis robot instead of 5-axis VMC?

I've tried to use 6 axis robots for machining applications in the past, and in my experience, it's not something they do well. The flexibility and versatility they have translates into a lack of rigidity, even for really light machining work. Programming also tends to be an issue - there doesn't seem to be a smooth, efficient way to take part model data and create positional data for the robot controller.

ijmok · Apr 27, 2017

Johnny SolidWorks said:
I've tried to use 6 axis robots for machining applications in the past, and in my experience, it's not something they do well. The flexibility and versatility they have translates into a lack of rigidity, even for really light machining work. Programming also tends to be an issue - there doesn't seem to be a smooth, efficient way to take part model data and create positional data for the robot controller.

Check out Autodesk Powermill Robot,

We've done some work with a Kuka Robot in a trimming application, and it worked fairly well

Rob

Johnny SolidWorks · Apr 27, 2017

ijmok said:
Check out Autodesk Powermill Robot,

We've done some work with a Kuka Robot in a trimming application, and it worked fairly well

Rob

Yea....Powermill - not a fan. Maybe it was just the application we were trying to use it for, but I wasn't impressed, and it's a hard sell to the customer.

And we actually already tried a robot for this exact application, and were not at all happy with the results. I wasn't involved with that phase of the project, so there may have been other issues I'm not aware of, but I have some confidence that if a robot mounted spindle was a good solution for this application, the guys on the project would have made it work.

Johnny SolidWorks · Apr 27, 2017

EnderDRM said:
You should check out Kirsan Engineering in Pleasant Prairie, WI.

Do they make a 5-axis machine that's not on their website? Because it looks like they're just a machine shop.

I'm not looking to shop the work out - I'm looking to buy or build a machine for a customer so they can do it in house.

cameraman · Apr 27, 2017

Johnny SolidWorks said:
Good Evening All

I'm looking at a precision deburr application (aerospace customer) and the part geometry necessitates a simultaneous 5-Axis operation. The parts range from fairly small (would fit in a 2 inch cube) up to 18 inch rectangles, 4 to 5 inches thick.

To stave off everyone saying "do it another way dummy!" we can pretend I'm not a complete idiot, and that there are very valid reasons to consider purchasing an entire, brand-new, simultaneous 5-axis machining center, to do nothing other than deburr parts.

Cycle time is important on all parts (isn't it always?) so a higher speed spindle and quick rapids are important. Since it's only going to be running a chamfer mill (with relatively light chamfers at that) I'm not too concerned about machine rigidity.

Probably makes sense to gang-up the smaller parts (since the cycle time for the deburr process is likely about the same amount of time as loading/unloading the machine.) So I'm looking at those 4-up 5C collet rotaries. Make sense? Are there better options for a quick load/unload with this type of setup? About the only way to hold these parts that makes sense is to use an ID grip (whether an outward acting gripper/chuck, arbor, mandrel, whatever.) A custom solution isn't out of the question, if it's necessary.

The only advantage a larger ATC will give me is being able to hold more chamfer mills, so it's not really a priority, right?

What am I not thinking about that I should be? What am I worried about that I shouldn't be?

Edit: We're a certified 6-axis robot integrator, and already tried a robot for this exact application, and were not at all happy with the results. I wasn't involved with that phase of the project, so there may have been other issues I'm not aware of, but I have some confidence that if a robot mounted spindle was a good solution for this application, the guys on the project would have made it work.

Edit #2: This machine is going into a 24/7/365 manufacturing facility, and throughput is huge. Might very well wind up being robot-tended.

Thanks All!

Sorry to ask but what is your budget or budget consideration for this?

Would a Makino DA 300 be over kill? (Just thinking precision, high quality chamfer and high spindle speed, Aerospace and 24/7/365 "throughput is huge" ... "Might very well wind up being robot-tended", (that you mention)... Sort of thing?

DA3 5-Axis VMC Reduces Machining Time for Complex Parts - YouTube

(DMG_MORI/German soundtrack music on the Makino video... They show some amazing final finishes / finishing processes that are fast , nimble, accurate and frankly beautiful... That's what happens when you cut air imperceptibly close to the finished article (lol); but you get the idea ... seems very nice though)

Larry Dickman · Apr 27, 2017

cameraman said:
Sorry to ask but what is your budget or budget consideration for this?

Would a Makino DA 300 be over kill? (Just thinking precision, high quality chamfer and high spindle speed, Aerospace and 24/7/365 "throughput is huge" ... "Might very well wind up being robot-tended", (that you mention)... Sort of thing?

DA3 5-Axis VMC Reduces Machining Time for Complex Parts - YouTube

(DMG_MORI/German soundtrack music on the Makino video... They show some amazing final finishes / finishing processes that are fast , nimble, accurate and frankly beautiful... That's what happens when you cut air imperceptibly close to the finished article (lol); but you get the idea ... seems very nice though)

I've never seen a machine tap air that fast before.

Johnny SolidWorks · Apr 27, 2017

cameraman said:
Sorry to ask but what is your budget or budget consideration for this?

Would a Makino DA 300 be over kill? (Just thinking precision, high quality chamfer and high spindle speed, Aerospace and 24/7/365 "throughput is huge" ... "Might very well wind up being robot-tended", (that you mention)... Sort of thing?

DA3 5-Axis VMC Reduces Machining Time for Complex Parts - YouTube

(DMG_MORI/German soundtrack music on the Makino video... They show some amazing final finishes / finishing processes that are fast , nimble, accurate and frankly beautiful... That's what happens when you cut air imperceptibly close to the finished article (lol); but you get the idea ... seems very nice though)

It's actually along the lines of what we're looking at, but I'm not experienced with real 5 axis machines, so I decided to throw the information up here and see what everyone thought. We're leaning more and more towards just buying a simultaneous 5 axis from one of the big MTB, and at this point, I'm looking for guidance/input on what machine would be good for this application (because obviously all of the company reps say theirs is the best.)

Price is a consideration, but this machine is going to be one piece in a multi-million dollar production line, so $20,000 isn't going to be the deciding factor either.

Larry Dickman · Apr 27, 2017

One thing I think you need to look at is the rotary speed. A roller cam will run the pants off a worm drive. With a worm drive your max speed is (obviously depending on brand and model) 200-300 deg per minute. For a deburring application you'll be very disappointed. Something along the lines of a Brother Spedio would seem ideal, except for some weird export regulations they can only ship 4-1/2 axis machines to the US.

cameraman · Apr 27, 2017

Johnny SolidWorks said:
It's actually along the lines of what we're looking at, but I'm not experienced with real 5 axis machines, so I decided to throw the information up here and see what everyone thought. We're leaning more and more towards just buying a simultaneous 5 axis from one of the big MTB, and at this point, I'm looking for guidance/input on what machine would be good for this application (because obviously all of the company reps say theirs is the best.)

Price is a consideration, but this machine is going to be one piece in a multi-million dollar production line, so $20,000 isn't going to be the deciding factor either.

One of the problems (sometimes) with new machines is that one/you could be buying a new model that no-one has really run balls to wall for a few years.

I (personally) would recommend you watch the Webinar on the DA-300 as it does compare its design and performance with other machines/MTBs "Machine H" and "Machine D" and different design approaches and so on..., but also they expand the "Engineering theory" to more general cases/good principals. (I know its a pain in the arse to register and sign in and all that as the webinars are not on youtube, but well worth it (I think)). I don't have a DA-300 but was really super impressed by the direct drive systems they have on that and in particular the inertial compensation and collision avoidance and management seemed really excellent. Seems like a really useful and well engineered layer on top of the SGI (Makino)/professional/Fanuc control). The other thing I liked about what Makino appears to have set out to do, is the number of tools ( 60 tools standard/min) and multi pallet systems could be added and expanded in various increments without loss of initial investment. In other words the machine can be scaled considerably without having to junk previous iterations for automation and production. Sometimes going to greater automation can involve really awful retrofits that are expensive and risky or are even impossible (in some cases) as one should have ordered all those extra automated production features up front at the final scale. The flexibility in being able to scale the enhanced production options as one's business grows seemed really good for folks like ourselves.

In your case maybe the DA-300 is not "Industrial" / production oriented enough to what your multi million dollar production facilities are going to end up being?

Sounds like Matsuura wouldn't be a million miles away from what your overall scheme seems to be?

I liked watching the DA-300 webinar as it pulls into focus a machine that is pretty amazing and almost best of class-ish, and one can learn some useful things but at the same time (in my case really pulls focus (for me) as being completely the wrong machine for me and what we are trying to do...). I tend to go about things a bit like Sherlock Holmes in that I look at everything and then eliminate machines and grouped processes one by one and whatever you are left with (no matter how improbable) is the right answer. unless you want to build completely new machines for your parts that's the best you or anyone can do really (without overstating the (bleeding) obvious lol).

TKassoc · Apr 27, 2017

The parts sound small. How about as many Robodrills as they can afford with the Tsudakoma RTT-112 direct drive table like this -->Tsudakoma Direct Drive Rotary Table - YouTube

cameraman · Apr 27, 2017

TKassoc said:
The parts sound small. How about as many Robodrills as they can afford with the Tsudakoma RTT-112 direct drive table like this -->Tsudakoma Direct Drive Rotary Table - YouTube

DA-300 (base price + relevant options)//close on deal price, is of the order of $480K

I'm guessing Robodrill with that Direct drive TsudaKoma is about $160K ish?

So basically almost exactly three (5 axis direct drive 5 axis) robodrills for one DA-300.

I guess if you are really clever one robot could service more than one robodrill?

Hmmmm :scratchchin:

... ... :smoking:

Johnny SolidWorks · Apr 27, 2017

cameraman said:
I guess if you are really clever one robot could service more than one robodrill?

Nah, that's the easy part.

Johnny SolidWorks · Apr 27, 2017

I was checking out Brothers and Robodrills today, but from what I saw, you can't get a Brother with full 5th capabilities, and you can only get Fanuc with full 5th by ordering the rotary/trunnion from a third-party and sticking it on there yourself? Or maybe not - I'll have to give my local Fanuc MT rep a call on that I guess.

The Brother I saw was a whole different level of fast, but the Robodrill was no slouch either.

But in both cases, it looks like there is absolutely no room left in Z after putting the 5th on the table. Serious pucker factor on those high speed tool changes...

Anyone running either of these in a 5 axis configuration?

dstryr · Apr 27, 2017

Johnny SolidWorks said:
I was checking out Brothers and Robodrills today, but from what I saw, you can't get a Brother with full 5th capabilities, and you can only get Fanuc with full 5th by ordering the rotary/trunnion from a third-party and sticking it on there yourself? Or maybe not - I'll have to give my local Fanuc MT rep a call on that I guess.

The Brother I saw was a whole different level of fast, but the Robodrill was no slouch either.

But in both cases, it looks like there is absolutely no room left in Z after putting the 5th on the table. Serious pucker factor on those high speed tool changes...

Anyone running either of these in a 5 axis configuration?

I have a M140x2 running.... love the little thing. Took a production part (4500 pcs) at 24 min off my Quaser and put it on the brother and got down to 15 min

Can you share a picture? only down fall of the brother is no full 5x and small tool changer.

Do you really need full 5? Can you just 3+2 with 3d? The brother is so fast that it wont take much longer and cheaper machine to use for "deburring"

Johnny SolidWorks · Apr 27, 2017

dstryr said:
I have a M140x2 running.... love the little thing. Took a production part (4500 pcs) at 24 min off my Quaser and put it on the brother and got down to 15 min

Can you share a picture? only down fall of the brother is no full 5x and small tool changer.

Do you really need full 5? Can you just 3+2 with 3d? The brother is so fast that it wont take much longer and cheaper machine to use for "deburring"

Unfortunately, I can't share any pictures of the parts. But yes, I'm sure it needs simultaneous 5-axis capability - the part geometry necessitates it the majority of the time. There are some parts where I might be able to get away with 4+1, but it would severely limit the usefulness of the machine.

cameraman · Apr 27, 2017

Johnny SolidWorks said:
I was checking out Brothers and Robodrills today, but from what I saw, you can't get a Brother with full 5th capabilities, and you can only get Fanuc with full 5th by ordering the rotary/trunnion from a third-party and sticking it on there yourself? Or maybe not - I'll have to give my local Fanuc MT rep a call on that I guess.

The Brother I saw was a whole different level of fast, but the Robodrill was no slouch either.

But in both cases, it looks like there is absolutely no room left in Z after putting the 5th on the table. Serious pucker factor on those high speed tool changes...

Anyone running either of these in a 5 axis configuration?

Johnny Solidworks writes, " and you can only get Fanuc with full 5th by ordering the rotary/trunnion from a third-party and sticking it on there yourself?"

I think Methods (I don't know if they are in your area or not), were telling me that I/we/one can order the whole thing together and sorted out and delivered to one's floor...

I really got the impression that they really take care of sh*t (especially for routine maintenance and tuning up machines that have been going "Hammer and tongues" for several years). So I don't think it's a case of having to go it alone on the trunion... BUT maybe there are some trunions they will fit, and maybe there are some trunions (like the Tsuedokoma (direct drive) that they won't vs a Niken (for example))? Don't know about the Tseudokoma (looks really capable though... Nice!).

Might be worth checking out?

dstryr · Apr 27, 2017

Instagram

There is always something like a Yasda PX30i or a Matsuura Mam?

Simultaneous 5-Axis Precision Deburr Application Help

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