Spindle Harmonics Haas Vf1

APMJames · Aug 14, 2017

I have a slight problem.
Machine is a 2014 Vf1 8k spindle. Now the spindle was replaced due to slight error of z setting on a tool. With that being said within 9 months certain harmonic sound was noticed at certain ranges of rpm. Such as 4.5k and higher. A professional did look at this machine. The one that replaced the spindle. To his advise or statement, spindle or motor is bad. The spindle is running ok 4.5 and lower.

No noticeable chatter, deflections, or tooling problems. Main material used is 6061 alum with very little tool pressure. With machine on high rpm I did hit the power off and I am not sure what else to investigate myself due to the cost of service. Seems they charge a bit more then I do.

I supposed there is a way to test if it is the motor or spindle by taking the belts off and testing the motor alone. The cog wheel was cleaned I had heard that might cause a harmonic sound. There is no bearing sound.

Tools I can still use are 60 deg engravers without tip breakage, so I do not think it is mandatory to repair. However, and ideal are to look into to save up for a repair bill would be great.

APMJames · Aug 20, 2017

Update: With current cleaning under the hood... I may need to find a schematic of the motor and spindle. It just seems to be too odd it is a spindle issue. I just did a lower rpm job and there is no feed issues or anything. Anyone have access to a schematic of a Haas VF1? Age 2015 or so with a 8k spindle?

Milland · Aug 20, 2017

Can you post a video with a decent representation of the sound and the way it changes with RPM? Load and no-load conditions would be good too, as well as moving the recorder around the head to see if there's a change in levels.

litlerob1 · Aug 20, 2017

APMJames said:
Machine is a 2014 Vf1 8k spindle. Now the spindle was replaced due to slight error of z setting on a tool. With that being said within 9 months certain harmonic sound was noticed at certain ranges of rpm. Such as 4.5k and higher. A professional did look at this machine. The one that replaced the spindle. To his advise or statement, spindle or motor is bad.

I'm trying to figure out the missing link between the 2 statements that are highlighted.

But Milland is right, it's kinda like asking a mechanic why your car is making a vroom, vroom or a plunk, plunk noise when the car isn't there.

R

machtool · Aug 21, 2017

APMJames said:
Now the spindle was replaced due to slight error of z setting on a tool. .

What does that mean? Tool to gage line was changing?

A professional did look at this machine. The one that replaced the spindle. To his advise or statement, spindle or motor is bad.

I'd get a new professional to take a second opinion, if they cant tell the difference of the problem being spindle or servo.

The way you mention a "Professional". Did you go away from a HFO, for the replacement spindle?

Regards Phil.

tpkl91 · Aug 21, 2017

APMJames said:
I have a slight problem.
Machine is a 2014 Vf1 8k spindle. Now the spindle was replaced due to slight error of z setting on a tool. With that being said within 9 months certain harmonic sound was noticed at certain ranges of rpm. Such as 4.5k and higher. A professional did look at this machine. The one that replaced the spindle. To his advise or statement, spindle or motor is bad. The spindle is running ok 4.5 and lower.

No noticeable chatter, deflections, or tooling problems. Main material used is 6061 alum with very little tool pressure. With machine on high rpm I did hit the power off and I am not sure what else to investigate myself due to the cost of service. Seems they charge a bit more then I do.

I supposed there is a way to test if it is the motor or spindle by taking the belts off and testing the motor alone. The cog wheel was cleaned I had heard that might cause a harmonic sound. There is no bearing sound.

Tools I can still use are 60 deg engravers without tip breakage, so I do not think it is mandatory to repair. However, and ideal are to look into to save up for a repair bill would be great.

Yes you can remove the belt, that will tell you if there is an issue, but my guess is the belt is too tight, this is a common problem, I have been working on Haas machines for quite some time and have replaced MANY Spindles and motors and belts, Cogged belts are typicaly set by feel not by and actual tension test. Could be the motor/spindle but i doubt it.

APMJames · Aug 21, 2017

Lets see if I can clarify history.

Productivity has replaced the spindle about 6 months ago. This was due to a crash which cases bearings in the spindle to break. An estimate 6 months later sounds of harmonics was noticed with the replaced spindle. With ranges from about 4.5k and higher. Once again a Productivity tech looked at the spindle and was not too sure of replacement was needed. Nor was he sure if it was the motor either. There is a round cog like wheel he had cleaned out and inspected belts. Of which he has mention sometimes with belts harmonics can be found with dirt of grime on the cogs or the wheel. After of which opened up the rpm to max and shut off machine to demonstrate the sound was still there. As it was. Under his report was either motor or spindle would need replacement. He did run a test on the spindle and to his surprise the bar graphs showed one or two more higher marks. Once calling Haas to check it out he was not advised if that was in spec or not.

I will add a video of this either today or tomorrow for the sounds, have to wait until it is actually quiet in here.

To me a tighter or worn loose belt at higher rpm or something else seems to be the target in my mind. Trying to find actual schematics on the tension or other is not that easy.

DMF_TomB · Aug 21, 2017

on a photographic paper coating machine i had installed new timing belt pulleys and belts and got odd vibration readings. i talked to a gear engineer and he said does belt go down in pulley cogs (teeth) easy or is it tight ? he said on certain applications the pulley was recut with wider space between the teeth or cogs. why ? so belt teeth went into pulley teeth easy. so i had sent the pulleys to a machine shop that had equipment to cut gears and they recut the pulley teeth looser. vibration from belt went away.
.
i am not saying it is the cause (tight pulley teeth spacing). i am just saying what a engineer who specialized in mechanical drive systems told me once. engineer said you can wait for pulley teeth and belts to loosen from wear but it might take a long time. often it is only .002" too tight the pulley teeth spacing

Corym · Aug 21, 2017

Since you have a belt, I'm assuming you have the gearbox.

We had a VF-1 with 10k spindle and gearbox. gearbox/motor had to be replaced. New one had a weird squealing/rattling harmonic sound that occurred in a specific RPM range (may have been about the same range as yours. It's been a few years so I can't remember now. I want to say it was between like 4000-6000 rpm).

Selway came out and did vibration testing and inspected everything, went back and forth with the factory, and the result they came back with was that the gearbox had a change in design and the new ones came with cageless bearings, which could make noise like that. I was never really satisfied with that answer, but they weren't willing to put in a new one, I was sick of having to deal with them so much over what had started out being a minor issue (and turned into a blown up motor) that I just wanted to be done with it so we could run the machine, and they ended up doubling the warranty, so we called it a day.

Machine continued to run fine with no issues in dimensional accuracy on the parts or with the motor/gearbox...it was just a very annoying sound.

Not sure if that could have anything to do with your issue. It sounds like you had a vibration test done and you're waiting to hear whether the results were acceptable or not?

hanermo · Aug 21, 2017

Given that..
it is not normal ..
it only happens at high(er) rpm ..
something is wrong somewhere.

It might be
- that without the belt/spindle the motor is fine.
- The spindle is fine also without the motor/belt load / tension.

Get a stethoscope ?
Most likely the motor or the spindle will make noise, that is very clear with a mechanics stethoscope.
Imho.

APMJames · Aug 21, 2017

That mechanics stethoscope is a great idea. You'd think that would be a standard to check with. After years of old time car working.. I'll be picking one up later today. Once that is done I'll take cover back off and give a test around the spindle and motor.

As far as a gear box this is a inline direct drive.

Corym · Aug 21, 2017

APMJames said:
That mechanics stethoscope is a great idea. You'd think that would be a standard to check with. After years of old time car working.. I'll be picking one up later today. Once that is done I'll take cover back off and give a test around the spindle and motor.

As far as a gear box this is a inline direct drive.

Whoops, mistook the mention of belt as being drive belt. I guess it's just your encoder belt?

APMJames · Aug 23, 2017

I did record a mp4 and uploaded it to a url. Here the sound did not really translate to the video. However you can hear the pitch change from 8k down to 3.5k and up again.

[video]http://www.archetypeparagon.com/practical/RPM_8k_5k.mp4[/video]

May have to forgive I'm not too up to date on youtube and such.

Milland · Aug 23, 2017

Was the belt and cog you mentioned a fairly small unit? If so, perhaps the encoder drive, but what you have going on sounds fairly "energetic", and more sound than I'd expect from a small belt drive.

You'd said that a motor/spindle coast down from the top RPM also gave that sound through the speed ramp-down?

If the spindle is direct drive there's some sort of coupling between the motor and spindle, if that was damaged or otherwise compromised I wonder if it could cause that noise. It would be worthwhile to decouple the motor and run it up to speed, and perhaps to closely examine whether the motor and spindle are still properly on-axis with one another.

A coupling that has to do "more work" to accommodate shaft misalignment may make more noise.

APMJames · Aug 24, 2017

I have done a lot of reading or should I say wondering the web. It seems this site is the best for do it yourself.

DIY - Haas Customer Resource Center | Customer Resource Center

Or more so I found this page on the site much more interesting.

https://diy.haascnc.com/work-on-your-haas#gsc.tab=0

Once i get rid of this smaller job and such I'm attacking the Vf1. Once problem is found either by new spindle or drive belt I'll post.

Larry Dickman · Aug 24, 2017

FWIW, I've notice an odd, well not a vibration of any sort, but just a different tone on VF-4's ranging in age from 1-6 yr old. They all do it right around 5K. (these are all 10-12k inline)

As far as I can see, there is nothing wrong. Just an odd sound around that speed.

APMJames · Aug 31, 2017

I'll be looking at it today, with a newer video 50 seconds the sound range is there.
[video]http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archetypeparagon.com%2F practical%2F4750k_50Sec.mp4[/video]

Now I am new to videos and links but here is a direct link:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...hetypeparagon.com/ practical/4750k_50Sec.mp4

Not much is known other then it is getting worse but finishes are not. I am engraving with a 60 deg 1/8 into Alum and tip is still there. I'll keep it posted when more details are added or known.

Larry Dickman · Aug 31, 2017

APMJames said:
I'll be looking at it today, with a newer video 50 seconds the sound range is there.
[video]http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/redirect-to/?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archetypeparagon.com%2F practical%2F4750k_50Sec.mp4[/video]

Now I am new to videos and links but here is a direct link:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...hetypeparagon.com/ practical/4750k_50Sec.mp4

Not much is known other then it is getting worse but finishes are not. I am engraving with a 60 deg 1/8 into Alum and tip is still there. I'll keep it posted when more details are added or known.

links don't seem to work

APMJames · Aug 31, 2017

I have double checked links, I use a google chrome and firefox all windows based. It maybe my webserver used is limited by bandwidth. I only have a limited website just for the name of the company and email usage. Probably it is slower then others.

I have to wait until it loads to get it to play in a separate window. However it does play and or plays with downloading it as well.

http://www.archetypeparagon.com/practical/4750k_50Sec.mp4

Larry Dickman · Aug 31, 2017

That's a different sound than I'm thinking of. Does your machine by chance have TSC?

Spindle Harmonics Haas Vf1

Plastic

Plastic

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Plastic

Plastic

Diamond

Cast Iron

Titanium

Plastic

Cast Iron

Plastic

Diamond

Plastic

Titanium

Plastic

Titanium

Plastic

Titanium

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