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  1. #61
    CoolHand's Avatar
    CoolHand is offline Hot Rolled
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    Righto Walt, "MUM" 's the word on the WD40.

    I didn't figure that sandpaper would be a good idea. However, I have some scotchbright-esque stuff for cleaning dishes that doesn't have any abrasive on it that might work pretty well to dislodge the crud (which is essentially what they're designed to do, decrud dishes without taking off the finish).

  2. #62
    Walt @ SGS Inc. is offline Stainless
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    SpinLMate does infact make a insert that has an abrasive edge on it. Consider that the edge of the insert runs the full length of the taper. When you rotate the tool in the tapered spindle, you should be touching only the "high spots".
    What I am opposed to is getting into the spindle with sand paper and really rubbing and rubbing and rubbing. You will rub harder in the big end of the taper and thus you will bell mouth the taper. That is what happens when a spindle wears out, it gets bell mouthed.
    Looking at the pics of your blued tool, the area around the drive key slot would indicate to me that someone was in there already with a flapper wheel. The corners on them key slots should be sharper than they appear to be. Just an opinion. Try a rag with some kind of cleaning solution on it. Keep using it until the rag comes out clean, go to dry clean rags and then to a coating of thin bluing and see what you got.
    Remember, this is no doubt the cleanest that taper has been in a while.
    Regards Walt..

  3. #63
    Walt @ SGS Inc. is offline Stainless
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    Cool hand,
    Question, just for giggles, how much distance
    is their between the face of the spindle and
    the tabletop with Z axis fully retracted?
    Regards Walt.

  4. #64
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    There is about 14"-16" under the drive keys to the top of my vises.

    I'll get a better measurement while I'm in at the shop tomorrow.

    I think the fuzzy edges around the drive key hole marks are more from the massive piles of bluing that built up there when the tool taper seated in the spindle, rather than any previous modifications. I had no idea how thin that stuff should have been spread. I must have used about 40 times as much as I should have. Live and learn, eh?

    I'm going to tear the enclosure apart tomorrow so I can get up on the table and really give the spindle a cleaning. When I get some better pics of the contact pattern (with less goop this time) I will post them.

    Stay tuned, more tomorrow evening, I'm taking today off. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  5. #65
    Walt @ SGS Inc. is offline Stainless
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    Coolhand,
    Regarding the amount of bluing. I use just enough to feel like there is some lubricating
    when you turn the toolholder in the spindle.
    Ofcourse, you can't turn the holder unless
    you have the drive keys removed. O yes,
    remove the retention knob if you are checking
    for contact.
    Really, there is two ways to check contact.
    We at least two. Clamp the blued tool and
    then remove andlook at both the tool and the
    spindle. Then of course, insert the tool with
    no retention knob and no drive keys and rotate the holder back and forth. Then look at the
    holder looking for hard spots. Where the dye
    is completely wiped off but also look in the
    spindle. The brighter the flashlight, the
    better you can see. Look for where the bluing
    has been "marked" with lines side to side.
    By the way, I would be using a brite tool
    holder not one with black oxide on it. Nothing
    against black oxide for this except you can
    see the shiny holdes better.
    Regards Walt..

  6. #66
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    Good advice indeed.

    I will try it both ways when I get the spindle cleaned up tomorrow. All of my tool holders have bright tapers, so that's not a problem.

    Thanks for all the assistance, particularly on a holiday weekend.

  7. #67
    Walt @ SGS Inc. is offline Stainless
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    Hey coolhand,
    How goes the battle?
    Been setting here holding my breath.
    I'm about to turn blue like the
    Hy Spot stuff.
    Regards Walt..

  8. #68
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    Well, to be honest, I had an attack of lazy over the long weekend, and didn't hit a damned lick.

    Then, of course, Tuesday morning all hell broke loose at the day job, and it's been assholes and elbows for the rest of the week.

    Thankfully it's pretty well slacked off again for a little while, so I can get back to it tomorrow.

    On the upside, my MSC order came in, which contained a SpinLmate, so my cleaning should go a bit faster now.

    I'll post back with an update as soon as I have something useful to show you all.

    And whatever you do Walt, breath man, BREATH!

    Can't have you passing out on me, you're one of the more useful folks around these parts.

  9. #69
    SNK HATER is offline Member
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    I cannot believe there are actually more moog hydropaths out there. the place I used to work at had 3 of them. I ran one , a VMC with a knee mill like a bridgeport and the tool changer would get the wrong tool # mixed up and the spindle would try to orient and i had to mannually help it. I always worried about losing my hand. Anyway they were made right here in Buffalo i Guess, Really Cheektowaga. MOOG is actually based in E. Aurora but they had a plant in Cheek. A weekly Pennysaver is based in there old plant. Wow , cant believe it!

  10. #70
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    SNK - This one's not a Hydrapoint, but I did see a couple of Hydrapoints on Ebay here recently. They're still out there, and I'd wager they're still cantankerous as ever.

    I went into the shop today and worked on the machine some more. Armed with my newly unwrapped SpinLmate, and a new can of WD40, I waded in. After about 15 mins, the spindle and tool holders were clean, but I was mostly a light bluish tint. Until today I'd never taken a bath in WD40, but now I've experienced that as well.

    At any rate, here's the results of the cleaning and "de-varnishing" steps in the SpinLmate literature:







    Then I lightly blued a brand new solid endmill holder and placed it in the spindle without a pull stud (after I'd removed the drive keys).

    Tool Holder before:



    Tool Holder after I inserted it into the spindle taper and twisted it for a few turns:





    More to come in the next post, stay tuned.

  11. #71
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    Spindle taper after removing the above tool holder;







    Then I tossed the milling chuck in there and clamped it to see what kind of pattern I'd get with the residual bluing in the taper:



    I then lightly blued that same tool holder and clamped it into the spindle. I removed it without rotating it.

    Tool Holder before:



    Tool Holder after clamp and release:





    Still more to come, hang in there.

  12. #72
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    One more pic of the milling chuck after it was clamped into the spindle and removed without rotation:



    Spindle pattern after same test:



    I then spread the bluing around evenly again and re-clamped the tool into the spindle taper. I found that I could just barely spin the tool inside the taper with it coated in bluing compound. So, I clamped it up and spun the tool to pick up whatever pattern it would impart.

    Tool Holder after being clamped and spun;





    Spindle pattern:





    I then cleaned the tools and the taper again and re-clamped the clean milling chuck to check the run-out again.

    TIR = 0.002" + 0.001" when I pulled or pushed on the tool holder very hard.

    That's just about the same as before, so I got to thinking maybe the tool holder is just out of spec, so I chucked up a gage pin in a brand new TG100 collet chuck and did the same test again.

    TIR = 0.001" + 0.001" when I pulled or pushed on the tool holder very hard.

    Better, but not grand either.

    Here's the two tools tested:



    I'll wrap this one up in one last post in a minute.

  13. #73
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    OK, so my taper is cleaner, but not sparkling yet, my run-out problem is not really much improved, and I am a bit unsure about being able to spin the tool with the taper lubed.

    I cannot spin a clean tool clamped in a clean dry taper (the condition in which the run-out was tested BTW), and the drive keys are not beat up at all, so I'm not sure what to think of that.

    What about my contact patterns? Anyone got any ideas what's going on here? Is my spindle taper bell-mouthing? Is that why I can rock the tool holder while it's clamped?

    Any assistance with interpreting the info I've posted would be greatly appreciated.

  14. #74
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    Hellllooooooo?

    You guys all hung over from Sat. night or what?


  15. #75
    harrytm is offline Cast Iron
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    very annoying

  16. #76
    HuFlungDung is offline Diamond
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    Looks like still too much bluing being used. Wash it all off, buy a felt marking pen and draw lines down the side of your new taper shank, like poles holding up a teepee Then, twist that around and check for ruboff points.

  17. #77
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    "very annoying"

    Yeah, and making a worthless post to point out MY worthless post helps a lot. :rolleyes: Jackass.

    Hu - I will do as you ask, hopefully tomorrow afternoon. Who'd have thought that wiping blue marking compound onto a smooth metal surface would be so damned difficult? Certainly not me. I'm sorry that my noobishness is hampering the resolution of this situation.

  18. #78
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    rklopp is offline Titanium
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    From your bluing pattern it looks to me like contact is heavier towards the pull stud, i.e., that your spindle taper is bell-mouthed. That might explain why you have toolholder runout but the spindle taper indicates true. Bell-mouthing is the normal wear mode.

  19. #79
    Mud's Avatar
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    That you can turn the toolholder in the taper when it is clamped, with blueing for a lubricant, tells me that it is not properly clamped - either not enough spring pressure or the clamp mechanism is bottoming out before the tool is clamped. However I don't understand why there isn't more damage to the spindle taper and the tool taper. Perhaps the dirt you removed was taking up the space necessary to create clamping pressure.

    I agree with rklopp that the spindle is bellmouthed. I'd rather see it tight at the big end than the small end. Looks like it needs ground, and the clamping mechanism adjusted/repaired. Possibly getting the clamping correct and your cleaning work alone would be enough to get this job running right. Getting the clamping right might stop the rocking, at least under light loads.

  20. #80
    CoolHand's Avatar
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    That's what I was afraid of.

    I will likely need to pull the hat off and replace the spring washers in the spindle to bring the clamping force back up to where it should be. If I'm going to that much trouble, I really should go ahead and let Walt have a crack at it with the grinder as well. If I'm going to spend the time and money to rebuild the retention system, I want it to have a fresh taper to seat that well clamped tool holder in.

    Grrrr. . . .

    Older CNC machines really are a hole in the shop floor that you throw money into. Like a boat, but without the beer or the bikini clad gals.

    The hell of it is, I'd have to drop at least $50k to have a machine to replace this one's capabilities, so I'm kinda in it for the long haul at this point.

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