Is a T25 Torx Tamper Possible on CNC Swiss Screw Machine?

BrandonAaero · Feb 7, 2018

Is it possible to machine a T25 Torx Tamper (with .069 round 'pin' inside) on a citizen swiss screw machine? If you can machine that torx/pin feature, how do you go about getting someone to make just that one feature on a finished screw? What kind of shops do those torx features? I have a potential job but unsure how to get this feature done on our machines.

eaglemike · Feb 7, 2018

Check to see if you can get a rotary broach to do that.

Vancbiker · Feb 7, 2018

While I'm sure that some small quantities of Torx socket are machined, the vast majority are cold-headed.

How It Works – Cold Forming makes fasteners and a lot more | Today’s Machining World

hachu · Feb 7, 2018

hello
I believe they are already made
try safety screws
I have the drivers with the holes in from
t-7 to t-40
and they have set screws as well
where to get them I dunno
but they are out there
inna bit

litlerob1 · Feb 7, 2018

hachu said:
hello
I believe they are already made
try safety screws
I have the drivers with the holes in from
t-7 to t-40
and they have set screws as well
where to get them I dunno
but they are out there
inna bit

Is this serious?

OP, a rotary broach will be able to do it from stock. But if I'm reading correctly (not sure I am, based on the previous post) modifying the existing socket would be hmmmmm difficult.

I have made Thousands of Torx screws using a Rotary broach.

@hachu, you do realize that no thing in this paltry little world we live in just pops into existence, right?

R

danrudolph · Feb 7, 2018

Yes, it is possible to make a T25 hexalobe with the security pin on a Citizen.

Per the attached sketch, you'll need to start with a end mill smaller than .029" and helically ramp in around the pin, then open up the lobes using polar interpolation with an axial live tool. If you don't have an axial live tool, you can buy an NSK air spindle that will fit in your Citizen. I just got done making some T20's in 6Al-4V Titanium with an 8k RPM NSK air spindle.

It won't be fun and you'll need an high pressure coolant line aimed at the tool.

Perhaps use a face grooving tool to do the hard work and the small end mill to finish it off.

Screen Shot 2018-02-07 at 9.05.12 PM.jpg

hachu · Feb 7, 2018

hello
im just sayin either what he wants is either being made or they are close
google tamper proof screws and a pic of what you want will be found
if need be I can pic my drivers tomorrow
which lends 1 to believe why a driver if no screw
they do set screws as well
probably a different die in that end of production
either normal or with the pin
hope this helps
inna bit

BrandonAaero · Feb 7, 2018

danrudolph said:
Yes, it is possible to make a T25 hexalobe with the security pin on a Citizen.

Per the attached sketch, you'll need to start with a end mill smaller than .029" and helically ramp in around the pin, then open up the lobes using polar interpolation with an axial live tool. If you don't have an axial live tool, you can buy an NSK air spindle that will fit in your Citizen. I just got done making some T20's in 6Al-4V Titanium with an 8k RPM NSK air spindle.

It won't be fun and you'll need an high pressure coolant line aimed at the tool.

Perhaps use a face grooving tool to do the hard work and the small end mill to finish it off.

View attachment 219878

You are such a huge help and I really appreciate the advice. We have older model citizens but this job might be a good opportunity to upgrade equipment. This was very helpful so again thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

gkoenig · Feb 7, 2018

hachu said:
hello
im just sayin either what he wants is either being made or they are close
google tamper proof screws and a pic of what you want will be found
if need be I can pic my drivers tomorrow
which lends 1 to believe why a driver if no screw
they do set screws as well
probably a different die in that end of production
either normal or with the pin
hope this helps
inna bit

Yes, we all know tamper proof screws are readily available from multiple sources. Sometimes though, an off-the-shelf screw isn't going to solve a problem.

If everything everyone needed was available off the shelf, 90% of us on this forum wouldn't have jobs.

litlerob1 · Feb 7, 2018

gkoenig said:
Yes, we all know tamper proof screws are readily available from multiple sources. Sometimes though, an off-the-shelf screw isn't going to solve a problem.

If everything everyone needed was available off the shelf, 90% of us on this forum wouldn't have jobs.

I was thinking, regardless of whether it's available off the shelf. People do make the original equipment and they make money doing it, so why would that person not be you?

R

eaglemike · Feb 8, 2018

Might be easiest to buy off the shelf and modify.

chip_maker · Feb 8, 2018

If they were available "off the shelf" I don't think that he would be posing the question here.

Probably an oddball shape/configuration or special material requirement not commercially available, hence his post.

newtonsapple · Feb 8, 2018

BrandonAaero said:
You are such a huge help and I really appreciate the advice. We have older model citizens but this job might be a good opportunity to upgrade equipment. This was very helpful so again thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Is there a reason your part can't be rotary broached? Maybe you want to run a material that it won't work in?

Upgrading to a live tool Citizen with C axis contoring just seems silly if a rotary broach can do it (and if yes, it will be a heck of lot faster).

Call these guys: Torx Rotary Broaches | Same day shipping - Polygon Solutions

Super fast and pretty easy if you can get away with it.

sfriedberg · Feb 8, 2018

I don't have a Swiss, but if I were modifying existing parts to put a T25 security recess in the heads, I would make a little bitty hollow mill (trepanning tool) to cut the pin in the center, then follow that with a T25 rotary broach modified with a hole in the middle very slightly smaller than the OD of the hollow mill. I'd mount both hollow mill and rotary broach on my DSM-59 turret, and pray that I was stout enough to press the rotary broach into the work by hand.

Ox · Feb 8, 2018

litlerob1 said:
Is this serious?

@hachu, you do realize that no thing in this paltry little world we live in just pops into existence, right?

R

Genesis 1 / Big Bang

Same thing?

------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

litlerob1 · Feb 8, 2018

Ox said:
Genesis 1 / Big Bang

Same thing?

------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Funny thing Boss, when I wrote/typed that I knew YOU we're going to say something to dash my point down the Well.

eaglemike · Feb 8, 2018

chip_maker said:
If they were available "off the shelf" I don't think that he would be posing the question here.

Probably an oddball shape/configuration or special material requirement not commercially available, hence his post.

Not sure you understood my point. Many times in the past I've modified off the shelf components into something else, especially when quantities were limited. Lots of times this can be way cheaper and easier than starting from scratch.

litlerob1 · Feb 8, 2018

We are talking about the Screw, NOT the Driver. Unless I misunderstood the OP.

So modifying the Screw, would be like dumb dude. It is possible. You could drill a small hole and press the pin in there to make the post. Buying them off the shelf would be cheaper if you are going to use them. But if you are looking at making them for a customer than building it from solid would be the way to go.

R

chip_maker · Feb 9, 2018

eaglemike said:
Not sure you understood my point. Many times in the past I've modified off the shelf components into something else, especially when quantities were limited. Lots of times this can be way cheaper and easier than starting from scratch.

I get that, but when he said "screw machine job" my first thought was high qty's with other possible special requirements :cheers:

.

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Triaged · Feb 9, 2018

What material is it in? You may be able to use cold header tooling in a hydraulic press to forge it. Does the print actually call out for Torx® (need to be a licensee and pay royalties)? Or does it say Six Lobe? Or does it just need to work? Neither is possible to machine to the full spec. without a lot of effort. The bottom of the hole is at an angle going out into the lobes.

Places for header tooling:
Loomis Ltd
RTM Products

Is a T25 Torx Tamper Possible on CNC Swiss Screw Machine?

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