Advice on moving our prototyping work in-house with a Brother Speedio?

Hey everyone,

I'm an engineer in Atlanta, one of the founders of a very small company making tennis gadgets (shot-stats.com if you're a tennis fan!). I've recently started considering the possibility of doing our own prototyping in-house, and even our own production runs for metal parts (7075) until the demand outstrips our desire/capability to make parts. Which it hopefully will someday. I'm hoping to get some advice from you much more experienced folks as a basic sanity check. This will be a long post as I type fast and tend to be long on the details, so grab a Snickers. I do apologize for that, I know many of you hate walls of text. But anyone who makes it through gets my deepest gratitude! And if your advice saves me from a costly blunder I'll be happy to send a tool your way.



The type of advice I'm looking for is stuff like:

- Is the machine a solid choice for our needs?
- Are the options I'm considering worthwhile?
- Are my fixturing ideas optimal?
- Is my cost estimate realistic?
- Is my "basic shop setup" realistic?
- Did I miss anything?

Bit of background on me, I'm a lifelong tinkerer/mechanical engineer by training/EE by studying. I've worked closely with machinists (or been the machinist) in just about every job I've ever had. I have a decent grasp on the basics although most of my machining experience has been manual (bridgeport or engine lathe) with the exception of a waterjet and laser engraver. I pride myself on being an engineer with well-developed practical skills...and one that machinists usually don't want to injure after they receive drawings.

To cut to the chase, I'm starting to finalize a quote from Yamazen for a Speedio S700X1 or S1000X1. We pay a lot for prototyping work at the moment (last single prototype cost just over $1k, more on that later) and more importantly we have to wait for it. If you want an idea of the parts made, here are some pictures of the current prototype. Imgur gallery w/ exploded view here.










All parts are 7075-T6. Magnesium was also considered but the processing/finishing is considerably more involved and good 7075 seems to have an even higher strength to weight ratio. I think even with such small parts a larger machine is better. My reasoning is that for prototyping, we can have multiple fixtures set up to make multiple types of parts without having to re-organize anything on the table. Big plus. For production we can fit many more parts into the machine so it can run longer without someone needing to feed it every ten minutes.

That set in the pictures is five machined parts. Protolabs managed to do four of them for just under $500 (cheapest and fastest I've found after getting quotes from 6 shops), but they have no undercutting tools (what?!) and one part had a dovetail. That part was done elsewhere, again for nearly $500. This isn't sustainable if we need multiple prototypes per week or 50 for a beta test run. Not to mention that those thin plates should have been 0.75 mm (or even 0.5mm) and protolabs won't do anything less than 1mm. There is a whole conversation to be had about China (I'd really like to do as much as we reasonably can in the US, hence this post) but suffice to say we spent 4 months in China at a program specifically aimed at hardware startups and navigating the manufacturing landscape. The last quote we got in China was for 4 units (much simpler parts too, total of 3 parts per unit) was just over $1500 for 7075 (supposedly...and no temper). These parts will get a lot more complicated before they get simpler.

As far as a machine, I've essentially settled on a Brother Speedio, though I hardly call that settling. By all accounts from this and other forums it is an excellent machine with a great control, and dead nuts reliable to boot. I considered the Haas DT-1 but with options, the price difference is just not compelling enough. The upsides to the Brother are very hard to ignore. The Brother is also more than fast enough to run reasonable production - I estimate we can do at least several thousand units per year without the machine really noticing, and without straining ourselves after sorting the fixtures/programs/tooling. If we were to luck out and find an experienced CNC operator I imagine that could easily go up into the tens of thousands or even higher. Of course there are still things like the electronics, packaging, assembly, etc that will be outsourced, but the machining cost is a big chunk of the BOM. I considered buying used but quickly abandoned that idea. For one, Yamazen is 20 minutes away from us in Atlanta. So far they have been extremely responsive, helpful, and patient. I've heard great things about them and I'd like to work with them.

For another, I'm not interested in a project. When I buy tools I always aim for quality and functionality first. I want a machine that works, period. I'm not just going to be running this machine, I'm also the guy designing the parts, the guy designing the electronics and getting the PCBs made, the guy going to China to find a packaging supplier, the guy interviewing new hires, the guy overseeing the software development, etc... I think most of you can sympathize with having too many responsibilities! It's enough constantly changing tasks that IMHO without the "good tool" strategy I would be spending half of each day fixing the cheap oscilloscope, then the broken CNC controller, then the cheap air compressor, then the worn out ballscrews, and so on. It's how my father was and is, and how I grew up, but nowadays I'd rather buy the more expensive air compressor instead of the cheap one I have to fix 10 times. I know I don't have to preach to you all about the importance of quality tools.

The cost of the machine, amortized over the next few years, is easily justified by looking at what we spend on prototyping now. Even if the monthly cost is the same (or more) we gain much more flexibility, control, and most importantly SPEED. After that, being able to use it for production is just a bonus. I'm good friends with a few guys in Oakland with their own startup (met them in China) that also bought a VMC (Haas) for prototyping. Despite the cost, frustration, and learning curve said they'd do it again in a heartbeat because there is just no other way they could have prototyped as much and as fast as they did. This is my main motivation.

As far as options I'm looking at:

- 16k spindle
- Coolant through spindle
- Increased capacity ATC (21 instead of 14)
- Probing system and toolsetter (Yamazen here works more with Blum but are very amenable and I'm interested in Blum vs. Renishaw thoughts)
- Manual pulse generator (no jog wheel on the control!)
- Top cover and possibly a mist collector
- Fog-buster system

A 4th or even 5th axis (3+2 type system) is something I'm seriously considering because the idea of cutting down on setups for prototyping really appeals to me. The fewer custom fixtures and setups I need, the faster we can iterate. My main concern here is working around the loss of usable Z-axis travel. My ideal machine setup (currently) is a 4th/5th on one end of the table, then a vacuum fixture for machining the very thin parts, then your standard Kurt-type vice (or two) for general use. Being able to reach all those things on a machine with a relatively small Z travel concerns me. So a column riser...eh...good idea? I'm concerned with the lowered rigidity of the riser as well, but truthfully we will not be stressing this machine. This is where I really need the advice of someone experienced with that type of thing to guide me.

As for the vacuum fixture, this is an area where I can't find a ton of information online for our specific needs. I have no prior experience with vacuum fixtures either. It seems to me that a custom vacuum fixture would be the best way to hold those thin covers. The machining operations are pretty minimal: contour, pop a few holes, countersink. From running some calculations, it seems machining forces ought to be low enough even with barely over 1 sq. in. of vacuum area. Ideally we turn off the vacuum and pick up the finished part without needing to sand/file, or do anything beyond sandblast it and put it in a box to send to the anodizer. Is this realistic? Is there a better way?

As far as other major equipment, the Brother will be going into our new workspace which is a hair over 1100 square feet (picture here). It is an office as well as my electronics workbench as well as our prototyping center.

In addition to the machine we need:

- An air compressor. Quiet operation is an absolute requirement, and sadly these compressors are very expensive. Unless the building allows us to stick one outside we have no choice. I'm very open to suggestions, so far it seems we will need a rotary vane/screw type compressor in order to run it inside and not want to poke our eardrums out.
- A horizontal bandsaw for managing stock and cutting workpieces. Open to suggestions here, I think a small, bog-standard Jet bandsaw would suit us just fine.
- A seat of HSMWorks. I use Solidworks for everything and I think HSMWorks will be more than adequate for anything we will reasonably do.
- General things like a workbench, tool changing station, inspection equipment, shop vac, etc...

Here's what the cost breakdown looks like:

- S1000X1: Just under $100k installed with listed options. Will be financed.
- Fixtures: Allocating up to $10k to start
- Tooling: Allocating up to $10k to start
- Air compressor: Expecting around $5k
- Horizontal bandsaw: $1500
- Workbenches/cabinets/shelving/toolholding: $3k
- HSMWorks: Expecting just under $10k


So that's it! If you made it this far I am impressed and grateful. Did I miss anything? Are my costs reasonable? Am I looking at something the wrong way? Are my assumptions flawed? Please let me know! I'm an information sponge and any thoughts I can get are extremely valuable. Thank you!

$140k will buy a hell of a lot of prototypes. I think that's a false economy.

There is nothing shown that could not be made on the cheapest of used CNC machines. You could buy a 20-25 year old Haas VF-1, some vises, some ebay tool holders, and a used 60 gallon compressor and be all set to go for less than $25,000

The best part is, you could use that Haas for 5 years, and most likely get most of your money back out of it. They hold their value very well.

Holy wall of text Batman!

I read it all but started to get glassy about 3/4 of the way....

I'll make this quick, I don't have input on all of your points but I'll give what I can.

prototype work is $$. Good application for printing in plastic for frequent iteration until you have the design more stabilized.

design for manufacturing, if you work at it you can make the design both faster and easier to make. That's your job.

Brothers are good iron and perfect for this type of work. There are several people here running speedios and they seem very happy.

Your costs estimates are actually reasonable, unlike many startup guys.

Not familiar with Brother myself but I doubt any VMC has a riser setup like a bridgeport, I may be wrong but I doubt it. Ball screws and rails don't like to stretch. There may be an option for more Z but it's a factory thing and what you get is what you have.

HSMworks is good stuff for milling if you are familiar with SW already.

Send a PM to JID2 or John Weldon. They went through this same exercise a couple years ago.

If you really want to go past 4 axis look at the M140X1. If you were my client, instead of a 4/5 tilting table, I would recommend a 4th axis with a dual vise on a trunnion. This gives you 6 sided machining in two set ups with more work holding stability.

The boys in Atlanta will do a good job of supporting you.

I agree with ewlsey. That will be around a $1500 / month payment. It sounds like you spend less than that per month on outsourcing prototypes, so this makes no sense at all unless you intend to break that barrier.

On the flip side, if you go to production, then that is a fantastic machine, and is actually my next purchase exactly how you have your options laid out. (Mist collector and fog buster are the same thing, by the way) I make parts about the same size as yours, but usually more complex and out of varied materials in runs of 50 on up to 2000+ orders, and of all the research I've done, the Brothers are kicking everyone's asses for this type of work.

I caution you, though, that production machining isn't as easy as it sounds. There are a lot of people (some of my customers are examples) who tried it and ended up outsourcing anyway, after spending all that capitol on machines they ended up selling off at a loss. I even offered to go to one customers shop and set them up to make their own parts, but he refused because it was so much easier (and profitable) for me to make their stuff even though they have machines in house. You may want to hedge your bets and at least have a back up machine shop that can run your parts if you get in a bind.

After going through a few of these purchases for non production, I think those involved in production miss one critical element of the thought process involved in spending so much money on a machine for non production. The main reason I have been able to ascertain from these interactions is the need for designers to have autonomy as well as speed of process. Also, a new machine will translate into a production machine much easier. It also does not hurt, it has certain tax benefits.

In the grand scheme equipment is pretty cheap if it's productive. In his position I wouldn't cheap out on some thing that is older, used, less capable, less reliable and doesn't have all the productivity features that will make prototyping faster.

Does your new work space have 3 phase power? If not, then you should add a few thousand for a phase-perfect or a couple thou for a good roto-phase.

I highly recommend Yamazen. Their service has been top notch.

Our Brother has worked out quite well for our prototyping needs. Looks like your parts would be easy for it to make.

One problem I think you might have is not hiring a machinist to run it. Do you want to pay an engineer to make parts? You need to factor the time of the person running the machine into the cost. Quite a few of the engineers at our work place could easily program and run the machine, but there's no way we would want their time spent on machining instead of engineering. Even to make simple parts, it's easy to eat up days and weeks of time.

Matt@RFR said:

I agree with ewlsey. That will be around a $1500 / month payment. It sounds like you spend less than that per month on outsourcing prototypes, so this makes no sense at all unless you intend to break that barrier.

On the flip side, if you go to production, then that is a fantastic machine, and is actually my next purchase exactly how you have your options laid out. (Mist collector and fog buster are the same thing, by the way) I make parts about the same size as yours, but usually more complex and out of varied materials in runs of 50 on up to 2000+ orders, and of all the research I've done, the Brothers are kicking everyone's asses for this type of work.

I caution you, though, that production machining isn't as easy as it sounds. There are a lot of people (some of my customers are examples) who tried it and ended up outsourcing anyway, after spending all that capitol on machines they ended up selling off at a loss. I even offered to go to one customers shop and set them up to make their own parts, but he refused because it was so much easier (and profitable) for me to make their stuff even though they have machines in house. You may want to hedge your bets and at least have a back up machine shop that can run your parts if you get in a bind.

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Lol this is how I acquired 2 of my brother machines. Company thought it was easy to make parts so they bought some machines, hired some people....Well it didnt work out so well.


After reading your post, my advice would be to seek out someone to hire before you buy a machine. Buying something is the easy part. Finding someone good to come work for you making prototypes all day and not taking forever will be the more challenging task.

Wow, thanks for all the replies! I'll try and address the points raised.

ewlsey said:

$140k will buy a hell of a lot of prototypes. I think that's a false economy.

There is nothing shown that could not be made on the cheapest of used CNC machines. You could buy a 20-25 year old Haas VF-1, some vises, some ebay tool holders, and a used 60 gallon compressor and be all set to go for less than $25,000

The best part is, you could use that Haas for 5 years, and most likely get most of your money back out of it. They hold their value very well.

Click to expand...

I have to admit I'm a little skeptical of the pricing here. Even a used machine won't get us around the need for tooling and some of the fixturing (vacuum plates for instance). Then there's rigging and transport. Your point is taken though, even then it would be cheaper than the current solution. I'm wary of machines that old as far as maintenance and functionality compared to a new machine with a nearby distributor. How likely am I to find a 20 year old Haas that can run without any serious maintenance for a couple years? How would the resale of the Brother suffer if we had to sell it in a year or two? I like to think it'd keep a large chunk of its value since this is a very light use case.

XD341 said:

prototype work is $$. Good application for printing in plastic for frequent iteration until you have the design more stabilized.

design for manufacturing, if you work at it you can make the design both faster and easier to make. That's your job.

Brothers are good iron and perfect for this type of work. There are several people here running speedios and they seem very happy.

Your costs estimates are actually reasonable, unlike many startup guys.

Not familiar with Brother myself but I doubt any VMC has a riser setup like a bridgeport, I may be wrong but I doubt it. Ball screws and rails don't like to stretch. There may be an option for more Z but it's a factory thing and what you get is what you have.

Click to expand...

3D printing won't really work for us at this point, though we've used it a lot in the past. It's just not strong enough; we're at the point now where we need to see how little material we can get away with without sacrificing durability. Plastic also impacts how vibrations are transmitted to our sensors which is crucial for our software to work properly. DFM is, of course, crucial. We're approaching that point soon, with luck!

Brother does have riser options, 150/250/350mm if I recall.

2outof3 said:

If you really want to go past 4 axis look at the M140X1. If you were my client, instead of a 4/5 tilting table, I would recommend a 4th axis with a dual vise on a trunnion. This gives you 6 sided machining in two set ups with more work holding stability.

Click to expand...

I did look at that machine (they actually had one in stock that they showed me) but it's a more substantial cost increase - another $20-$30k before options. I'm also somewhat afraid of the smallish table size. I've definitely been looking at doing a trunnion 4th. The 5th would give us easy access to cut weird angles (some of those chamfers for instance, which are dictated by internal volume/shape) but I don't know if it's worth it. Any opinions on Nikken rotary tables? They seem to be friendly with Brother.

Matt@RFR said:

I agree with ewlsey. That will be around a $1500 / month payment. It sounds like you spend less than that per month on outsourcing prototypes, so this makes no sense at all unless you intend to break that barrier.

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We do spend quite a bit more than that. That $1k was just for one prototype. Usually we need at least 5 at a time. The previous iteration was simpler and cheaper and cost us around $1500 just for a set of 4. To prototype at the level we need currently, we'd probably spend nearly $5k/month, and more if we need a lot of parts. There's also the less obvious time cost of making sure the parts are perfect and everything fits before I dare send it off, because if there's a mistake it adds a week and that money is down the drain.

That stuff really slows us down, and if we want to run a few different prototype in a week or two - or make 50 of them for testing, the costs really skyrocket. So in our particular case, if we're running prototypes semi-regularly then it does make some financial sense, not to mention increasing the turnaround by an order of magnitude. A big part of this decision is the impact it will have on our operating mindset, if that makes sense.

For the fog buster, I meant that mist nozzle that spits out larger droplets which won't fog up the room. Didn't know that it's also the name for a mist collector.

2outof3 said:

The main reason I have been able to ascertain from these interactions is the need for designers to have autonomy as well as speed of process. Also, a new machine will translate into a production machine much easier. It also does not hurt, it has certain tax benefits.

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That's pretty much my thought process. Cost is a big part, but if think about it as amortized over a few years, it's just another monthly expense. But it gives us much more capability and speed.

Vancbiker said:

Does your new work space have 3 phase power? If not, then you should add a few thousand for a phase-perfect or a couple thou for a good roto-phase.

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Yep! I talked to the electrician and it's a simple job for them to route the 3-phase line from a nearby room to ours. I think 30A will do OK but they can run up to 100A if we ever need more.

John Welden said:

I highly recommend Yamazen. Their service has been top notch.

Our Brother has worked out quite well for our prototyping needs. Looks like your parts would be easy for it to make.

One problem I think you might have is not hiring a machinist to run it. Do you want to pay an engineer to make parts? You need to factor the time of the person running the machine into the cost. Quite a few of the engineers at our work place could easily program and run the machine, but there's no way we would want their time spent on machining instead of engineering. Even to make simple parts, it's easy to eat up days and weeks of time.

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Glad to hear that! I just keep hearing more good things about Yamazen. I've thought about the machinist aspect. I am not a CNC operator. While I have faith that I can manage the learning curve to run prototypes for us comfortably, I know production is another can of worms in which I have little experience. In this case I am both the engineer and the machinist (at least for now) and typically if I've made a design I'm not doing much to it until I see the prototypes. I'm hoping to make that cycle faster.

My time for the company can be as cheap as it needs to be, but as you said I won't be able to work on other things while at the machine. For production do you think it's wise to realistically assess how we've been doing with running the machine for prototyping, then get an operator if we can't manage it? Either way I would definitely consult with an experienced machinist. My big concern is just that if we try to find an operator NOW, he or she will be sitting around twiddling their thumbs most of the time. Not to mention I think we can easily double our costs for the year by hiring someone prematurely, and I'd never hire a CNC operator for $10/hour. A) They're worth far more than that, and B) I don't trust someone who is OK with that to play with something that gets very expensive when things go wrong. We wouldn't have enough work to really keep them busy.

Speaking as an institutional engineering group leader I wholeheartedly agree you should bring prototyping in-house. The cost of waiting for prototypes is the cost of the prototype plus the burn rate of the entire company. I also think by prototyping on a production machine you'll be able to ramp up right into production with a product that's already optimized for short cycle times. I hope you're planning to stick to CNC machined parts. I'm fond of telling people that Apple is the most valuable company in the world because their phones and computer chassis are machined from *&^$%$ billet!!!! Maybe it's the early eighties kid in me who still covets anodized aluminum BMX parts. From the size of your parts a forth axis looks very attractive as the mini tombstone concept works great. You're also on the right track for CAM I think. There a couple of other in-Solidworks programs like MasterCAM for Solidworks but I'm sure they all work fine. Also yes to the wireless probe, that's been just massive for us for all sorts of things, especially modifying parts you've just made.

As for hiring, I'd strongly suggest as a lead engineer you should learn how to go from SW to finished parts so you are really familiar with the whole operation. That will make you a better designer in terms of optimizing for efficient production and the ability to experiment with different designs and seeing how that impacts cycle times. Then when you get busy, you can get other people but at least you'll really know what it's all about. I did quite a bit of CNC back in 2010, creating a lot of prototype DNA separation channels that ultimately led to this: Home - Coastal Genomics I think we went through about 11 CNC prototype versions of the channel plate so being able to turn new designs around in one day was critical.

N.B. My friends over here: MTT Innovation who are doing some really exciting stuff, got a TM-1 last year. At the time it felt like a big step but it's been a godsend for them.

Hi All:
This is a very interesting thread; not so much because of what the OP has posted, but because the reaction I'm seeing is so very different that I usually see when a thread like this pops up.
I was expecting a flood of "You have NO IDEA of the difficulty, blah blah blah..." but I see only two pretty respectful dissenters so far.
Even our infamous John Welden seems to be pretty calm about this idea.

So what's different this time around?
Does the thread just need to mature a bit before we have a nice pisser going?

Personally, I think there's a lot more gear that's needed to make a decently comprehensive prototype shop, and a single machine, even a kickass one like the Speedio is only going to get the OP partway to his destination.
What happens when you need to turn something, or grind something, or bend something, or weld something etc etc etc.
I've got a mountain of stuff around me, all of which is pretty much indispensable to me for the kind of prototyping I do.
If all the OP will ever make is stuff pretty much like the sample, a decent VMC will mostly do the trick, but if there's other designs in the pipeline, then.....?


Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix ? Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
Clarus Microtech

rcoope said:

I hope you're planning to stick to CNC machined parts. I'm font of telling people that Apple is the most valuable company in the world because their phones and computer chassis are machined from *&^$%$ billet!!!! Maybe it's the early eighties kid in me who still covets anodized aluminum BMX parts.

As for hiring, I'd strongly suggest as a lead engineer you should learn how to go from SW to finished parts so you are really familiar with the whole operation. That will make you a better designer in terms of optimizing for efficient production and the ability to experiment with different designs and seeing how that impacts cycle times.

Click to expand...

Good to know I'm not crazy.

I agree on the Apple argument. Obviously we are not Apple, but I do find it funny that so many startups/engineers I've encountered want "the next Apple" but also want to do things the Walmart way. Rush a design and send it over to a shed in China (not an exaggeration here!) to be squirted into a mold. I'm of the mind that people value quality engineering and products, and I get in trouble on this front sometimes. It's a risk we are taking, pressing for 7075 instead of a larger injection molded housing. I'm hoping that it pays off.

I won't lie that part of me is just plain freakin' excited to have an awesome new toy (who wouldn't be?) but I'm trying to be careful and ensure that we can justify it. Having said that, I do wholeheartedly believe that as "the engineer guy" I need to be really aware of what is involved in every process I oversee, so I'm not caught talking out of my ass too often. I've met SO MANY supposed engineers that you all would laugh at, who don't have the slightest intuition about how things work/are made. Guys and girls I wouldn't trust with a $10 set of Harbor Freight calipers. They give the rest of us a bad name. But I digress...

I'm setting up one of our old 2007 MY Brother S2C's for this now. It will have another main, intermittent use also, but we will use it as an engineering tool quite a bit. I do have a 4/5 I can put on it (spare for another machine). I really like the Sankyo 4/5 axis indexer, been a reliable FAST performer, but not much room on it for fixturing / etc. It works for us because most everything we do is round so I designed a collet system for it.

The column riser is a block that raises the entire Z axis up by either 150 or 300 mm. I had to do this on two of the S2C's (the one I'm tinkering with and a production machine). These can be field installed, but I don't recommend it if you don't do machine building. I haven't seen any loss of rigidity in what I do from the 150 mm column riser and the production machine has been running 24/7 since 2010 in this role.

+1 on the TSC, mist collector and MPG. Also, get the BIGGEST TANK if you are not going to get a chip conveyor system for it. If you DO get a chip conveyor for it, make sure it is specifically designed to handle aluminum fines.

The machine itself is bulletproof.

I prefer the Blum probes. No second hits required for the probing on a Brother machine to maintain accuracy.

As mentioned while I was typing, you can probably justify this machine on the burn rate of the company waiting on prototypes alone.

Lots of good points raised in this thread. If you are ever up to the Smokey Mts, give me a shout, we may do lunch or something one day.

I didn't see anything in your budget for measuring equipment.......did I just miss it?

implmex said:

Hi All:

Personally, I think there's a lot more gear that's needed to make a decently comprehensive prototype shop, and a single machine, even a kickass one like the Speedio is only going to get the OP partway to his destination.
What happens when you need to turn something, or grind something, or bend something, or weld something etc etc etc.
I've got a mountain of stuff around me, all of which is pretty much indispensable to me for the kind of prototyping I do.
If all the OP will ever make is stuff pretty much like the sample, a decent VMC will mostly do the trick, but if there's other designs in the pipeline, then.....?

Click to expand...

I totally agree. To your point, most of the stuff this company will do will be small parts for our own use. Occasionally we may need some test fixtures (e.g. we need to build a tennis ball cannon for durability testing), or we'll run our own parts for fun. Very occasionally I might take on some of my old projects (SS 304 flanges for scientific equipment) to keep our lights on, if it comes to that.

For turning, I agree. I could easily see where a lathe would come in handy, generally speaking. For our parts there's not much that needs to be turned. Only thing I can think of for now is the hinge pin, which is a hardened steel shaft, 1.5mm OD x ~25mm length, with two flats. That's the sort of part where I agree with two of the posters here: it makes no sense to invest in a CNC lathe for those parts when they can be done very cheaply elsewhere.

I actually have a bench grinder and drill press in my bedroom, and will be moving those over to the new space. I have a couple of new plates designed for that grinder to replace those god awful stamped washers that clamp down on the wheel, but the cheapest quote for them is $300. 4x what the grinder cost! The mill would handle those nicely. A welder would be great but I honestly can't think of a use for us. In any case there is a blacksmithing shop 50 feet away from us in the new building and they would gladly let me use theirs.

Our intended use is much more focused than a general job shop, so I hope we can get away with a lot less. However, if you think there is other equipment I'm forgetting, please tell me!

EDIT: I like to think that I can do a lot of stuff that'd otherwise require turning on the mill itself. Not for production, more for checking function before sending it off to be turned in any quantity. Is this an OK assessment?

Tonytn36 said:

I prefer the Blum probes. No second hits required for the probing on a Brother machine to maintain accuracy.

I didn't see anything in your budget for measuring equipment.......did I just miss it?

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That's the biggest thing that appealed to me about the Blum probes. I've heard a few things about them flooding and having to be replaced. Maybe just flukes? Or have they sorted those issues?

You're right, there's nothing in there for measuring equipment. I've personally got a set of Mitutoyo 8" calipers and a 1" micrometer of the same brand. The calipers aren't coolant-proof but the mike is. For our prototyping work, currently, that really will suffice. Maybe an extra mike to cover the entire part envelope. Otherwise I'm thinking I'll just get equipment as I need it. Now, if we do start running production things will change and we will need some more equipment. I plan to cross that bridge when we get there.

EDIT: After writing that I realized you are probably referring to stuff like dial indicators/magnetic bases/squares/gauge blocks, etc... I did overlook that! What would you estimate as a reasonable cost for these things, for our purposes? I envision basic things like tramming vises, checking soft jaws, checking runout, etc... Anything I'm missing?

Nikken is a first class product for the tables as is Sankyo.

If you are doing TSC you must use a mist collector.

Tony hit the riser dead on. It will not substantially reduce stability but with a fourth axis and trunnion it is most likely not needed. We do about 10 trunnions a year and only do risers on very rare occasions. Better to buy some low profile tool holders. You can get off the shelf ER collet holders with a 1 inch length from spindle face to the end of the nut.

implmex said:

Even our infamous John Welden seems to be pretty calm about this idea.

Click to expand...

He's not some home shop guy making a perpetual motion machine.

He showed pictures of the product he wants to make.
He doesn't act like he's got a zillion dollar idea and can't tell us about it.
He seems serious and not an idiot.
He has a real budget, not some BS $5000 to spend.

For guys like that, I usually have the attitude of whatever, go for it. If he works hard enough, he can figure it out.

disclosure - I don't do this for money.

That said, I do make prototypes and tools for orgs I care about (think of it as philanthropy) and the time savings (and burn rate savings!) of even a modestly efficient design/machine/test cycle are huge. Also, never underestimate the value of making the part as intended!

I would make the following comments:

1. The learning curve on CAM systems seems to be high. So you will loose time getting the CAM system to output the code you want. Do be sure they have a good post, or can timely provide one.

2. When you go to actual production, machines with robot loaders and/or pallet changers may be useful to you. Probably way too early to buy such things. But not bad to think about them a little bit.

3. Always buy the best possible chip removal solution that you can. You don't want to be shoveling out the machine, nor using a garden implement to unclog fines out of something.

4. I would think you need a stand and a surface plate.

Also, the space devoted to storing, mixing, cleaning up, storing for disposal, and general screwing around with coolant, may consume what will seem like an inordinate amount of space, especially in a small shop.