Time to pick a VMC -Nearly New machine day.

Well, here it is.
I really don't want to regret this post. I value all of your input/imagination/ideas etc and respect your knowledge. So I'm genuinely asking for some advice on my next purchase.

After a long hard search and weeks of research into whats available, I've decided to NOT buy a second hand, used VMC from any of the available ones I've seen in AUS.
2 Reasons.
1: most of them have not been cared for, are rusty buckets of **** with smashed screens or missing controls and are circa 1981.
2: The prices for second hand modern ones are sometimes listed as more then new ones, missing spindles, or servo's, or are 7 tonne, in fact there's like a billion reasons that make me think I wasted a shit load of time looking....

Sooo...

Off to china I went.
For 25 000 AUD I can get one of 3 machines delivered to me. They are the following, and I would like some advice on both machine + controller.

So:
Can I get some advice to help me make a decision on the following.

Option 1: My fav so far.
VMC550L - 16T ATC - Siemens Controller. (Can choose Mitsubishi 70B or GSK)
Under budget to my port for 25k AUD. Includes some tooling etc.
Can choose BT30 or 40, and 10000rpm spindle.
Was thinking BT40. Any reason why not?
China Milling Drilling Machine Cnc Metal Milling Machine Price Vmc550l - Buy China Milling Machine,Milling Drilling Machine,Metal Milling Machine Price Product on Alibaba.com

Option 2: Chinese industry workhorse DM55-tc-cnc
10 Tool ATC. Nice Siemens controller.
Great price. Bt40/8000rpm spindle.
I uploaded a picture cause the website doesn't have all the stats this does...


Final choice, probably the cheapest actually.
Has some nice touches but is slightly harder to find with a controller that is not a KND.
Cnc Milling Machine With Automatic Tool Changer Vmc7032 - Buy Cnc Milling Machine,Vertical Milling Machine,Mini Cnc Milling Machine Product on Alibaba.com

Any thoughts? I Know many of you bash china but also use a lot of their stuff.

Now I will be financing some of this. Its a manageable loan but really think of it as a 20 yr investment in making some parts and having some fun. Since they are Chinese i figure replacement parts wont cost an arm and leg either. Thoughts?

My big concerns are HSM compatible controllers and probing features.
Any Ideas?

IMO, you are going to be sorely disappointed with buying a "new" Chinese VMC. I'm sure you can get a used Haas (even if it requires a little work) on that price point. Consider this:
1. Your VMC will break, even if it is new. All machines break at some point
2. You have no idea if the Chinese manufacturer will be in business when it does- will you be able to get parts then? If so, from where? I can't imagine paying for shipping for a servo, spindle or ballscrew from China.
3. Are you comfortable and mechanically inclined to do all the service-related work yourself? If you aren't, will you be able to find someone who can, and not charge you an arm and/or a leg?

You get what you pay for.

I too think you'll be disappointed. There is a reason why they cost as little as they do. I also believe you get what you pay for. They are cutting costs in places you'll only find out about after its on your shop floor.

I wouldn't want to buy a ole rickety POS either but maybe with more looking you'll find something used that is decent in your price range.

Good luck...

Brent

"Off to China I went" -- Is that metaphorical, or an actual event? If I were seriously considering buying a machine direct from China, I would even more seriously consider going there and seeing the machine in person, if there is no intermediary distribution arrangement with demo machines. The statistical probability of getting something that doesn't work as expected, or at all, is simply higher. Your comfort level with the trade-offs involved of your time spent on fixing/modifying/making work vs. the (supposed) dependability of a machine from a different source just need to be factored into the raw cost equation.

That said, I would go with 40 taper, and higher spindle speed where there is a choice. Siemens controls have a generally good rep, will likely work well as long as the hardware it's trying to talk to works.

Don't Do it, listen to the people!!!

yardbird said:

I too think you'll be disappointed. There is a reason why they cost as little as they do. I also believe you get what you pay for. They are cutting costs in places you'll only find out about after its on your shop floor.

I wouldn't want to buy a ole rickety POS either but maybe with more looking you'll find something used that is decent in your price range.

Good luck...

Brent

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Both good points. I am looking. I guess i'll keep looking till I return at least from tassie which is atleast 2 weeks. I'd rather buy locally but its tough here in aus to find something decent. I'll keep looking for now hopefully something comes up.

Off to china was metaphorical I'm looking at Leadwells and other Taiwanese brands too, bet their price tag is more hefty. But at least it has a decent name.

Nothing necessarily wrong with the china stuff ..
but the 2 machines are very low power, re: a new haas.
Specs on the first were poor.

And, you will really, really, really want to be sure about the controller doing what you need it to do.
Otoh,any controller will likely do basic gcode poperly, and getting a post to only use such is likely not too hard.

Price and quality are not necessarily related.

Buying stuff from china is easy - getting what you need vs what you thought you were buying is hard.
I have dealt with china for 25 years, so I have plenty of experience.

As a major piece of equipment, I would expect to spend at least a week there, at the factory, getting to actually run the machine.
Trained, see it work, make your pieces.

I ship servos, linear guides and ballscrews all the time from china (poland, germany, japan, usa) - shipping costs are about the same as airmail costs - ie insignificant.

Some chinese ac brushless servos are very good- just as good as usa or japanese stuff.

Maybe you would fit in over at ******* better?

i would never ever buy a china machine that i planned on making money with, and i dont want to give them any of my money ever. AUS must have a HFO. i would go for a new Haas if price is an issue. youll be so happy you made that choice.

For a basic HAAS milling machine you are looking at $50k price range (twice your budget). Add the VAT, transport, a few bits and bolts and don't forget those mega thousand dollars 1(one)mb extra if you plan on doing 3D. Been there, tried to cut a deal with them but unfortunately it just didn't work out. I was closing a deal on $130,000 worth of equipment from them (a mill/4th + TL1 lathe) and when I've asked the guy to load the ctrl with a single additional megabyte (one lolll), he went "crap, hang-on, I need to revise the contract". I took my bag, my mobby, grab the Mrs by the arm and left in a flash. What a bunch lollll

They are good machines I'll give them that. As hard it is to believe (comprehend) for many, I've seen some here locally who exceed those of HAAS for less $. China is a big country and changing fast :/

RE Chinese machines. Yes, there are some pretty good deals around and surprisingly pretty decent packages to choose from (all prices, sizes, incl support, spare parts inventory access by Intranet, etc etc). Many Machinery Co are pretty well established however their market is local (no export, no 'alibaba'). Btw those you find on Alibaba.com are the ones to avoid. You have to come here and see the machines, visit the factory(ies), etc... get to know them really.

Without a trip here, I'll have to agree with everyone... its all based on luck mate

ps: All of the moving parts on today's modern Chinese machines (screws, ballnuts, rails, bearings, controller, servos, spindles, etc etc x100) are all "imported" from either Taiwan or Japan. That said if you need anything 'spare' in the future you just need to contact those Taiwanese and Japanese based manufacturers - or replace with an equivalent (modular/generic parts). Chinese are smart... they know how to make a machine easily serviceable for overseas customers The casting however is often domestic and proprietary... but I'd be surprised you'd need this as a 'spare part' lol

Luck. Let me know if I can be from any help to you at this end.

I would never even think about another Chinese machine. I run a rather large factory in southern Guangdong. I started with the company Jan 1st 2014. When I began they had four Cutting brand Chinese gantry mills with 1 meter tables. They are down constantly, spindles, pumps, scales, ect. They have Fagor controls and cannot take a G2 or G3 (witch many chinese machines do not do since it is not used here). everything is broken into G1's and is painfully slow. every time something breaks you pay extra (foreigner tax, because they think we are stupid). I bought our first Haas VF2-ss fo 15K more than the chinese machine but it out produces all four Chinese machines. If fact it produced so much more I bought 16 withing 12 months. However, somewhere in this time purchasing picked up two Hurco VM20's and four feeler's. If you are looking to save a little money go Taiwanese not Chinese. The Feelers are beast for the money, The Hurcos are boat anchors though. I go to every machine show in southern China and visit dozens of shops that run chinese machines and have never seen one that I would personally buy.

My experience with Chinese CNC's is not real extensive, but what I have seen is not too good. Yes, many of them have linear guides, spindles, controls, drives, servo motors, etc. that are imported and often from "name brands". That's not the stuff that usually has caused trouble in my experience.

All the soldering on cable connectors for motors, encoders, etc has been of poor workmanship. Mainly cold joints. Works for a while until oxidation starts. Then intermittent problems start to occur that can be a real PITA to track down.

Low grade wire and cable, connectors, contactors, thermal overloads, relays, switches, sensors, terminal blocks, etc. are used. Those components are where you'll also have trouble.

The type of use you plan for it will also have an affect on how satisfied you will be. If this is a home "hobby" type purchase where the machine will be treated kindly, cleaned regularly, etc. you have a better chance of being happy with it.

Your opinion is highly valuable, as you are actually over there.

I dont understand one thing, though..
Haas sells about 2-3000 machines per year in china.
Local production is likely at least about 10x (my est, so about 20-30.000 machines / year.

All of these machines are sold .. and all of these machines work, fairly well, because they produce most of the consumer productd, + low end, + mid range industrial goods used in the world.
Bullet trains are a good example. High end, high tech, chinese make and install more per year than all the rest of the world combined, by some high multiple.
Its also true that many industrial, even high end machines are sold by all the manufacturers - not just haas.

I also hear lots of anecdotes about "poor" chinese equipment, but in my experience, first IT and related stuff for 20 years, and now 12 years with automation and cnc stuff, this has never been my experience.

Its harder to buy the right chinese stuff-yes.
Because there is no branding, and no extra costs.
Thats the big plus - its also why its relatively cheap (800 vs 4000 € for 1 kW ac brushless servo drive, for example).
Or 80€ vs 400 for a 35 mm linear guide block.

I suspect the poor results some have had with the chinese stuff is related not to the quality, but the purchasing process used.
Since my own experiences are quite different, over 26 years.

The stuff related to cabling and connectors etc. was a great point, btw !

g-coder05 said:

I would never even think about another Chinese machine.
..
They are down constantly, spindles, pumps, scales, ect.

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Thanks for the advice guys.

I did check out those two machines, the niigata is nearly as old as I am.

I am willing to bet its rusted through, grease lines would be full of grossness. 87 is pretty damn old. Doubt i can even probe on it. I'm not interested enough in a near 30 yr old machine.

Anyway, there is a Mitseiki VM20 that they may take a bunch of money off. I don't think the dahlih will actually fit but I'll inspect it when I get back. I've contacted feelers hoping maybe a 23A is in my budget. I'll call haas tomorrow see what they have to offer and have emailed a few Taiwan suppliers. Will keep you posted.

I gotta be honest it must be just an Aussie thing to bash the living crap out of your controllers?

Are bridgeport making decent VMC's these days? I've emailed them... hoping somethings in my budget.

I am having great difficulties to perceive what some of you are looking for or making reference too. I bet you guys are making ref to those machines you often see on trade-my-shite websites and kindly label "all" of the Chinese machines as such. 1992 style VMCs with GSK and Made in Tibet servos drives.... as in those that even local Chinese manufacturers themselves does not buy lollll That is what's advertised on super duper Alibaba.com. Sadly you'll rarely (read never) see a local and established automation machinery manufacturer advertising his products on the same platform or similar (how f n embarrassing that would be).

Get it now?!

My experience shopping for a medium range VMC and lathe locally was absolutely fantastic. It would be fair to say that I've been helped a lot by the local community... helped to weed out the "soldered machines lol" out of the lot. Literally all of the machines I've been recommended to go check upon came with controller manufacturer's cabling and hardware. Push screw plugs, snap in, screw plugs, bridges, etc etc... Even the 24v PSU and wall power cords are supplied by the controller manufacturer (mostly Siemens, Fanuc based packages). Those all have proprietary connection/tors. Literally 'nothing/nada' made in China or hand soldered! Geez...

Confused as to what you guys are refereeing too exactly. I say screw your Alibaba and come over to Shanghai beach for a visit.... we can get a 800mm wide tables with scales (all domestic, GSK, etc) for less than $15,000 here (Brand Spanking NEW) mate, shiny paint job and all. You can triple that price for the same stuff on Alibaba bud :/

Seriously think you guys have to close down Taobao.com and Alibaba.com lolll Come over and ask the real pros in the trade ("in China") where are the best machines to buy They are not hard to find

Shanghai.. please make 2-3 examples of real machines, by brand, address or factory.
I would like to contact them, and if you have actually been to these, then..

Interested in something with 1 - 1.5 m wide table, in the 4-6000 kg mass, 25 kW or so.

Who makes stuff like this, at a reasonable price, in your own opinion, please ?

When I make ref to a 'quality' Chinese machine I also mean by that a manufacturer who manufacture, assemble and has 'modern' QC processes in place. The first thing you need to do when visiting a factory in China is ask for their sign-off min/max accuracy built sheet. 95% (no joke) of the cases they will tell you "sorry, this is confidential and for internal use only".. which mean they don't have - walk out. Some (those I am talking about) will let you see them. Can't picture/copy prior contract signing, but you do get that test sheet and other test results/simulation specifics of your machine at the end. In fact... the step just before final payment and delivery!

Have a look at sigmacnc (dot) com. Those are the new kids on the block atm - aggressively competes with F**lers and the other brand names you guys already familiar with. 20~25% cheaper than all the others with much higher quality/QC/tolerances (no choice, they are new in town.. 5 years company only). Top Notch assemblies (MGT from Taiwan, parts also, assembled in Shanghai). Near new tooling, machinery, factory and a smart task force (no cheap-cheap labor there).

ps. Sigma's castings are left outdoor for 24months prior assembly (look at their backyard, and watch out for the 3 dogs loll). That is another one you want to make sure when buying a "Chinese" machine loll Lots of them cast-on-request/sale - careful with that

barbter said:

If the homeland machines were that good, why didn't they buy them?

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Dunno, maybe because the domestic machines aren't as good as the Robodrill? Never said they were mate. It is the iPhone after all (read unlimited budget). Mind you, this Foxcomm's decision is coming from way above... possibly by a manager that couldn't speak a single word in Mandarin and/or who likes 16million colors brochures? Dunno, don't care really

barbter said:

Why don't you start a new thread and post some links to the websites of these wonderful machines?

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Nope. This website is mainly sponsored by North American based companies - let's keep it that way. The only 'China' machine you'll hear me brag about is that super HSM capable kitty that I am personally getting in a few weeks. You'll see every rapids and feeds this thing can do. Let's embarrass Foxconn a bit loll

I have audited close to 100 manufacturing companies in China and none of the good ones use Chinese CNC machines. Lots of Japanese and Taiwan machines. The few Chinese machines I would see would be at the smaller less professional companies or at mom and pop Mold Shops. It was very clear that the trend was to buy "international" machines and that a lot of the older stuff was locally made machines. In addition the market seemed to very regional with a certain brand popular in one Provence and unknown just a few hundred miles away.

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