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Tips for transition to Horizontal?

Jvizzi

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Location
Florida
Hello all,

I'm looking for whatever advise you could offer to someone entering the world of HMCs. My company is currently quoting either an Okuma MB8000H, or Mazak HCN 8800. Whichever builder they go with, we are buying a "turn-key" solution for one job in particular for this machine, as a start. This would include all tooling, programming, full-production run test of the part immediately upon installation of the machine.

That being the case, the learning curve would be somewhat lessened, as were essentially buying a machine completely ready to make this part from the get-go, and then over time, begin re-programming/planning current jobs for this machine.

My first question, which of these two machines would you choose? My second question, what are the skills, mentality, changes I need to implement as someone coming from the VMC mindset to HMC?

A little bit more information. I have about 6 years experience programming/setup/operating VMCs. We are currently using MasterCam X7 for programming and Inventor for solid modeling. Our company would fall closer to the Job shop side of the spectrum between Job/Production shops. We are production, but quantities are very low, parts may only repeat 3-4 times a year. A typical run maybe 1-10 parts, some as complex as 7 operations (with verticals).

Thanks!
 
Are the VMCs you currently us 4 axis? If so, then the transition is pretty easy. If not, then you could have lots to figure out.

I'd advise getting comfortable with programming from the center of rotation as a starter.
 
Are the VMCs you currently us 4 axis? If so, then the transition is pretty easy. If not, then you could have lots to figure out.

I'd advise getting comfortable with programming from the center of rotation as a starter.

Our two largest machines both use 4th axis rotaries, vertical position. However, we only use them for indexing to faces of the part, not true 4-axis milling. So I do understand how to set work offsets in the center of rotation, and how to setup multiple work offsets and work planes within the CAM software for working on multiple sides of the part.
 
Hello all,

I'm looking for whatever advise you could offer to someone entering the world of HMCs. My company is currently quoting either an Okuma MB8000H, or Mazak HCN 8800. Whichever builder they go with, we are buying a "turn-key" solution for one job in particular for this machine, as a start. This would include all tooling, programming, full-production run test of the part immediately upon installation of the machine.

That being the case, the learning curve would be somewhat lessened, as were essentially buying a machine completely ready to make this part from the get-go, and then over time, begin re-programming/planning current jobs for this machine.

My first question, which of these two machines would you choose? My second question, what are the skills, mentality, changes I need to implement as someone coming from the VMC mindset to HMC?

A little bit more information. I have about 6 years experience programming/setup/operating VMCs. We are currently using MasterCam X7 for programming and Inventor for solid modeling. Our company would fall closer to the Job shop side of the spectrum between Job/Production shops. We are production, but quantities are very low, parts may only repeat 3-4 times a year. A typical run maybe 1-10 parts, some as complex as 7 operations (with verticals).

Thanks!

Why did your company narrow it down to these two Manufacturers?
What type of part are they going to turn-key for you?

As for the VMC to HMC transition. In all honesty it won't be to bad. If you're like me, I would rather run a HMC over a VMC.
 
I would go with the Okuma personally, and for a number of reasons. The Okuma control is better for starters. But I also came from a shop where we had Mazak HCN-6000-2's and we saw a lot of weaknesses revealed after 24/7 use. The tool hangers might be the weakest part of these machines. Things like, the way the toolchanger door is mounted to the machine, the toolchanger's swing-arm design, and so on. If you're doing production machining, especially 24/7, toolchanger's reliability becomes a big deal.

As far as transitioning to an HMC from a VMC? Well, you'll write a program the same way - that is, imagine your part is the paper print drawing... The tool still moves around the part, and you still program it in the same way. You still drill with the Z axis.

What takes a little time, is the fact that the Y/Z axes are reversed as you normally think on a VMC. Just remember this - The spindle is always the Z-axis... So just be careful with the handwheel & jog buttons. Think twice before turning/pushing them, and go slowly to start. In very little time, you'll be able to switch back and fourth between HMC and VMC without even thinking about it.

And sometimes, standing "sideways" helps too. Good luck :)
 
I would go with the Okuma personally, and for a number of reasons. The Okuma control is better for starters. But I also came from a shop where we had Mazak HCN-6000-2's and we saw a lot of weaknesses revealed after 24/7 use. The tool hangers might be the weakest part of these machines. Things like, the way the toolchanger door is mounted to the machine, the toolchanger's swing-arm design, and so on. If you're doing production machining, especially 24/7, toolchanger's reliability becomes a big deal.

+1 on this. My experience very much follows Jashleys. Okuma was way better than Mazak. Mazatrol Matrix was OK from an operator standpoint but on the Windoze side, twice in two years corrupted files caused a couple days downtime. Sadly in both cases Mazak were unable to help get it going again. It was with documentation from a PM forum user that led me to the files that needed to be re-loaded. In addition to toolchanger woes, the cutting performance was pretty sad. I know this experience is counter that of many happy Mazak users, but it is what it is.
 
Hey Jvizzi, I am in the Tampa Bay area, also a long time Mastercam user. I am not familiar with either of those MTB's however. We are in process of buying some Mazaks so I guess I will soon find out. :D
I would recommend upgrading Mastercam to start, X7 was not great with solids and X9 is pretty awesome with them IMO. We are not on maint anymore so I don't know anything about Mastercam 2017. I was told in Mastercam, HMC's should be programmed using Top/Front plane as that is how the post and machine definitions are set up. I have only done minimal programming with our Haas EC400 with the horizontal machine definition so I am no means an expert, but as I said, very experienced with Mastercam. Shoot me a PM if you want to talk.

Mike
 
Why did your company narrow it down to these two Manufacturers?
What type of part are they going to turn-key for you?

As for the VMC to HMC transition. In all honesty it won't be to bad. If you're like me, I would rather run a HMC over a VMC.

I'm not so sure why. I know the size of the machine is necessary, as the raw blank size of this block is about 12" x 30" x 40". Also the people in charge of the purchase have experience with both of these machine builders, so I guess that is the main driving factor.
 
The transition should not be difficult except for the guys planning the purchase. Going turnkey and having a specific part in mind will go a long way in figuring out ROI.

Moving forward, high mix/low quantity jobs will warrant multiple pallets and a large ATC. I'd push for a hive/matrix and anything else that is required to allow the future addition of a pallet pool/FMS. Buy extra pallets right off the bat, even for a 2-pallet machine, and have a jib crane installed next to the loading station.

An HMC will allow you to machine 3-sides of a 6-sided part in the same setup. The left side is machined "blind" since the cutting area is often obscured by the tombstone. The best solution is to get verification software like Vericut - much more productive than sticking cameras and mirrors in the machine, IMHO.

Lastly, don't bother fully tooling up a large hive right off the bat. Get enough for the turnkey operations and a few dozen spares, then add em as you go. Chances are you'll want longer gage length toolholders than you think you need, in order to clear the fixtures.
 








 
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