Hello everyone first time, long time. I have been given the task of deciding wich of these machines should be my company's second cnc swiss.
We would like to do some complex dental parts on this machine wich will include off center eliptical milling.If there is anyone out there who might have both brands of these machines in their shop and would like to offer their opinion I would appreciate the input. We are trying to decide between a Citizen M16 and a Tornos 20 A
Sorry, I can only vouch for Star SR20R models,
they used to be pretty cheap a few years ago
with all the bells and whistles. These machines
are used alot by the dental part manufacturers
and their sub contractors. Most dental parts
are small and they aren't fun to run, my
sympathies to the operators,.........Bob
I would go with Citizen over Tornos any day.
Back in the late 90's I worked in a shop that had both and the Tornos were complete crap compared to the Citizen.
Get the Citizen M20 because that will give you a bigger OD capacity even though you many not need it right away, it would be a lot cheaper than having to buy another machine just because of not planning ahead right away.
As far Star machines, those are really nice also plus they use the Fanuc control panel.
Just one more thing to think about if all the machines in the shop use a Fanuc control panel.
Why limit yourselves to picking between two brands?
For an alternative to the Tornos check this machine out:
Video from Google Video
For an alternative to the Citizen there is this:
And for a Swiss that can do absolutely anything and be changed over in ten minutes there is this video:
This machine can do angled abutments right out of the box. Assuming that those are the dental parts you are needing to do.
I have ran Citizens, Torno's,Stars an Hardinge screw machines. First off, the Hardinge ST-25 I ran was brand new and a piece of !! Didnt even compare to the Citizens. The Tornos Deco's I ran were the Deco 10 and 20. Tornos uses a windows based programming software, its good just different. The deco 10 was a 1998 and only had and X and Z axis on the sub spindle and was limited to some point on machining on the top side. The Deco 20 Is a good machine and has X,Y,Z on slides 1,2,4,5 with 3 (end working) being just xand z. The Deco's are for long production runs, no quick change overs. I don't think you can go wrong with a Citizen, now they are damn good machines and judging from the tsugami vids I just watched those are impresive too. Personally I would go with a Citizen.
I don't think he should just go buy a Citizen. I don't think he should buy the Tsugami or Tornos either.
If John has been given the task of picking the machine, then he has a fiduciary responsibility to the company to pick the best machine for the job. Without seeing the parts he needs to machine, it's really impossible to say what machine would be best.
He should at the bare minimum have 3-5 quotes from different builders. If I were him, I would have each builder perform an application review on the parts. He should provide drawings, lot sizes, annual quantities, and what options he would like the machine to have. ie. part conveyor, chip conveyor, bar loader, etc...
He should also have written expectations for machine acceptance. Will he require a turnkey and an SPC run off on some number of parts? The builder needs to know that so it can be quoted. A run off is cheap insurance that you'll be getting what you paid for.
Salesman can make all sorts of empty promises. Putting machine acceptance criteria on your contract to purchase the machine, eliminates all of the bull****.
John should ask them to provide cycle estimates, set up time estimates, and to provide a summary quote with all the options required to machine his parts completely.
I would also look at how long it takes each builder to get my answers for me. It's a good indication of the support you'll be getting down the road.
Next I would pick the top two or three machines and arrange to go see them at the builder or the dealer. I would also ask for them to arrange a visit to an end user.
If it sounds like a lot of work for John that's because it is. But he'll be spending in the ball park of $300 grand when all is said and done. That work is cheap insurance IMO.
John really has been given a lot of responsibility IMO. He should be proud that his company thinks that highly of him. He should also make the guys selling the equipment do a little work and stand behind what they are selling. Now is not a good time to be shy. It's a good time to be a pr**k.
He is better off paying a little extra to have it hit the floor running a capable process too. The machine payments will start right away, so the machine had better produce right away.
My $.02 FWIW.
Swiss pro, Agree with everything you have said. I was just offering my opinion on machines I have ran and set up/programmed with the Citizen being on the top of my list.
Thanks fo all the input guys.SwissPro your input is especially valuable. We have already weeded through most machines and have narrowed it down to the Tornos and the Citizen. Both gave excellent presentations with one being slightly better prepared than the other.Both had their good and bad points wich make's this decision even harder.So I was just looking for a general opinion from people in the field on wich they would choose if faced with this decision. And Bytored are you a Rush fan?
I have run, set-up and programed the Tornos, Tsugami(Not the TMU)and Citizen. My opinion is they could ALL do the job but I have found that the Citizen has been the one that makes my job easier for the "Total package".
HELL YES!!!!! Fanatic.
And Bytored are you a Rush fan?
I have Citizen machines as well as Tsugami and Star. I like the Citizen machines but most of my new equipment is from Tsugami. It all comes down to support. Rem sales is hands down the best support organization I have dealt with. Citizen is good but only at their factory level, the local guys are weak at best when something breaks. And Tornos service is non existent in my area. They will all make a quality part at the end of the day but what if something goes wrong, how quick do they respond? I have 25 of these various machines and do all the maintenance work myself so support to me is very very important especially when you want to run a new part that is non-standard. I also do all the programming for these machines and it can get a little crazy if you dont have a little help once-in a while.
Tornos is very fast, so if cycle time is what you want on a production machine that does not run many part numbers go with them.
Citizen would be more friendly to changeovers, but support is a little limited.
Index Traub is also a great machine, I see them as the next tornos.
Sorry to throw so much out there but Swiss is all I do, day in and day out.
If I had to choose only between those 2 it would most definately be the citizen.
You think Neil Peart can program a Swiss??
Anyhoo, are Gildemeisters swiss machines any good?
You think Neil Peart can program a Swiss??
Yeah, with the right sticks. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Bytor do you have a snow dog?
I think I missed something here in all the Rush. ???
Think Snow Eh!
nope no snow dog, just a fat golden retriever.
Pitglc, how's it going with the machine choices?
How does Citizen compare to Tornos for making angled abutments? (elliptical milling, inclined milling)
I just came across this and even though it is a few months old, I figured I would jot out an answer. Between Tornos and Citizen, both are going to be able to do the inclined milling, and eccentric work you desire. If you were at the IMTS Show in Chicago this year, you would have seen that Citizen had a great milling part on the M32Y that had a 90 Degree Y milled on, but at 2 45 deg. angles! It had angled helical, and thread milling too. I don't think the Tornos has that versatility, though, nor the tooling capability.
I just watched with my mouth open when I saw it do that at IMTS. That was cool.
Never used a Citizen but we obtained quotes from them,Tornos and Star for a project 5 years ago. Tornos was the quickest in terms of cycle time with Citizen the slowest (50% more than Tornos) followed next by Star (35% more).
We found the Tornos PNC very different to what we'd been used to but after a few months of pain it proved a good choice.
We have the Deco 13(16) machine with all options possible and setups are fast because we can leave many of the tools permanently set. We are able to do this because we have a large family of similar parts which may not be the case if you are in the sub contract business.
I guess the bottom line is that whatever choice you make, it should be based on your range of parts and that the bloody machine will break down and will require spares and service and so support is probably something that should figure high on your 'shopping list'.