New VMC..tooling pkg....What to get?

We just purchased a new Milltronics VM25 IL, and we need to tool it up. This is our first machine with coolant through, so I am asking the great minds for some of the tools that maybe they wished they had gotten. In order to get the discount we have to go through Command Tooling (sorry frank). I have just shy of $5,000 to spend and I want to spend it wisely. This machine has 10,000 rpms, so balanced tooling is a must.

In your opinion what are some must haves?

Shrink fit?
Milling chucks?

Right now I use TG100 collets for my other machines. Should I consider the ERs?

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks.

I really like the ER collets, and the flexibility.

Everyone raves to me about shrink fit tooling, but I just can’t get past buying the heater unit.

Im an er person also, however, recently I have had a few suppliers talk about hydraulic lock arbors. They are pretty expensive but they do the same job as shrink fit but without the machine. I think the cost is about ~USD$300 per piece. (one size)

10,000 is not that bad, most tooling is at least 10k rated these days.

I would look at the sort of high end ER collets though they are apparently a new type of collet based of the ER series but a bit longer meaning they have slightly less runout. Ill try to find the name of them today at work.

eBay.

For some reason there are dozens and dozens of Kurt D675's on eBay lately. You'll probably be happier with the D688, but you can probably get a brand new warrantied D675 for under $200 on eBay within a week, plus $60 UPS.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150278505326

If you want to maximize the effectiveness of that $5000 budget, shop eBay heavily for the stuff you need. It takes some time, typically I spend 30-60 minutes a day going through eBay auctions so that I'm always up to date on the Metalworking > Tooling category. I use www.bidnapper.com to place my bids at the last second which keeps the price down, keeps my auctions organized and lets me change or delete bids before they're placed at the end of the auction.

Also shop Enco's Hot Deals. www.use-enco.com Their hot deals flyer usually beats everyone's sale price. Download Hot Deals from the website, it's a 100 page .pdf usually, the mailer is like 30 pages.

One thing I'd consider is the through coolant with collets problem. You can get ER collets that seal up for through coolant, anybody know if those work?

What kind of milling equipment do you already have?

I'm thinkin that one of us must not have good reading comprehension skills, b/c I heard something a bit diff.




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We have 4 older Milltronics that don't have near the rigidity that I expect from this new machine. Not even mentioning the whole new animal of through the spindle coolant, 4 thousand more rpms, roller linear ways, arm style toolchanger, 24hp two speed direct drive motor, and high speed machining package.
This machine will be used for both mold work and general machine work. Kind of excited to push some of these tools to the limits.
I have an acount with Enco already. They definitely have some good deals sometimes. I wish I could spend the money all over the board, but I am limited to Command Tooling Solutions. Looks like they have some quality stuff.

$5,000 isn't a ton of money.

I spent $12,000 for tooling for my VF-1 last year, and I've probably since spent a few thousand more. At the time I was locked into a GSA supplier, so I couldn't go with any "discount" suppliers.

That said, I'd get as many vises as you can fit on your table (probably 4)

I have ER-16 & ER-32 collet chucks, a single keyless drill chuck and shell mill holder, and a variety of end mill holders. I've been happy with the collet chucks and use them for everything from drills to taps to end mills. Haven't ever had a problem with them not having enough holding power like some people do, but I machine mostly aluminum.

If you don't need all new cutting tools and such, you could probably get away with just $5,000. I spent about that much for all my initial set of toolholders, collets, 2 Kurt 3600V's, parallels, test indicators, etc.

Skip the D675 or D688, get a 3600V. (or two or three) Even better, go for the PT400 or PT800. I bought a PT400 a few months back and it is really nice. They are ground on all sides, so you can mount it on it's side or end. Pricey, but well worth it, like many things.

...recently I have had a few suppliers talk about hydraulic lock arbors. They are pretty expensive but they do the same job as shrink fit but without the machine.

Click to expand...

That what they might want you to believe, but not necessarily true. I have about 40 hydraulic holders here, and maybe 30 heat shrink holders. In NO WAY does a hydraulic toolholder have anything on a heat shrink holder, other than speed, ease, and safety of tool changing. In terms of performance, the heat shrink holder noticeably outperforms every day in terms of roughing capability, finishing quality, and nose clearance.

There will be a seldom challenging application where the dampening capability of a hydraulic holder will be superior, but I stress the word seldom.

Most of the money I have to spend will go towards toolholders. The reason for this thread was to see what your favorites are, and to see where I can upgrade from the tooling that I currently use. Having never had coolant thru before, or even ran a machine with it, I didn't know if there was something that I couldn't do without.
Here is the link of the company I have to use. www.commandtool.com

I'd go with a buying a twin jaw toolex vice, because it gives you 2 vices in one place , plus in the future you can buy more and stack them very tightly together.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/boris_t_cat/Social/during.jpg
theres 4 parts in each vice there.... If I had 2 more vices I could do 16 at once

12 ER25 holders, I've run these to 10 000 rpm with no balance problems(so long as you stay away from the dirt cheap ones )

A set of ER25 collets(you always need more collets than you think)

A facemill arbor or 2

Some sidelock holders 16 20 and 25 dia(mostly for tipped endmills that you dont have to run at +8000rpm )

And finally not forgetting a box of through coolant pull studs (I was lucky.. I got 24 of them free with each new machine)

Boris

apestate said:

eBay.

For some reason there are dozens and dozens of Kurt D675's on eBay lately. You'll probably be happier with the D688, but you can probably get a brand new warrantied D675 for under $200 on eBay within a week, plus $60 UPS.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150278505326

Click to expand...

It is very unlikely you will get one for under 200.00. I just got mine there for 350.00 shipped. The least I've seen one go for is about 280.00 without shipping. Considering places like MSC sell these for 500.00, 280.00 is still a pretty good deal.

This is who I got it from: http://stores.ebay.com/Shop-Tool-Auctions

Masome,

I think that most people have glazed over the fact that you are strictly speaking toolholders from Command.
I bought a package from them when I bought my Milltronics.
I have been happy with the toolholder quality over the years.
I now buy most of my stuff from Frank, or from US Shoptools, but but not for lack of quality on Command's products. (just their prices )

I have no advise on the CTS stuff, as I don't have that option on either mill. I wish I did though.

Best of luck,

Doug.

doug925 said:

Masome,

I think that most people have glazed over the fact that you are strictly speaking toolholders from Command.
I bought a package from them when I bought my Milltronics.
I have been happy with the toolholder quality over the years.
I now buy most of my stuff from Frank, or from US Shoptools, but but not for lack of quality on Command's products. (just their prices )

I have no advise on the CTS stuff, as I don't have that option on either mill. I wish I did though.

Best of luck,

Doug.

Click to expand...

Yes, unfortunately I am limited to just one company. I have a good idea on what I need to get, but like I said the CTS is a foreign territory for me.

I think I will go with ER collet holders for this machine.

Boris I wish I had thought about getting the pull studs included.

The ER sealed collets work great for CTS you just need a collet for each size of tool. I do not remember seeing that in the command catalog but I have not looked for it recently either.

I have not looked at the Command catalog, but you'll do fine with either standard set screw end mill style holders for TSC and insert type drills (they usually have a Weldon style or flat spotted shank). The ER's or TG's with coolant sealing collets also work fine in our Toyoda with ~325 psig TSC. We have run insert drills and some insertable end and face mills with TCS, also carbide tipped reamers with TSC work well, have yet to run solid drills, but would imagine they will work well too. You'll get a little seepage with the e/m and face mill holders, but not enough to worry about.

We have a few Command tools, seem to be fine, but have never put an indicator on one. What type of work do you foresee and tooling type, as this will help determine what you should be getting? If you are running a <1/2" e/m's, then that's going to be alot different than if you plan on doing a bunch of plunge milling big cavities.

I'd agree with Boris...get some ER collet chucks, a couple of face mill arbors, and the pull studs are always handy to have a bunch. There was a thread a while back on Frank Mari getting into the milling chuck business (I think he's there now), but there was some discussion on ER's vs. TG's and such...as I recall, the taper of the ER's are not as grippy as the TG's long, steep taper, but the ER collet nuts are more compact, and of course the 1mm range is better than the TG's.

BTW, Congrats on the new toy!

Steve

I have personally had good luck with arrays of ER20 and ER40 holders.
(ER20 will hold a 1/2" tool.)

Mine are Techniks, all ground, balanced, etc. I've never owned any Command holders, cannot comment on them.

The point is that with arrays of holders and as many collets as you can stand, you can get most tools into holders and away you go.

Did you get rigid tapping? If you did and you trust it, you can put taps in either tap collets or I guess normal collets (I've not tried the later) and then use the same tool holders.

Techniks does integrated three jaw chucks (like a jacobs chuck merged with a cat40 holder) which are handy for "just put a drill and go" jobs - you might want to see if Command makes a similar thing. (Assuming you dare drill holes with a chuck rather than a collet in mold work???)

I did get rigid tapping. Usually when I rigid tap I use a TG collet, nothing special.
I never use a chuck for my drills in a CNC. I can see a use for them if you are changing drills frequently, but IMO collets are much better.
It looks like I am going to have to give the ER collets a shot,but I've been using TGs for so long....

I'd be getting a couple Kurt D688's on sale.... a whole bunch of stuff from Maritool.. I'd think about ER40, but TG100 is just as common. I'd have a couple jacobs chucks, but plan on running most everything I could out of a collet. The rest depends on your work.... specialize it to what works best for you... get enough to get you started,, it will be apparent what you need to get for the rest.