hudson-ch
Aluminum
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2006
- Location
- Zurich, Switzerland
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Video Brochure for M460V-5AX is online
- Thread starter hudson-ch
- Start date
- Replies 18
- Views 8,537
cameraman
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
She IS beautiful... (from the inside ;-) ).
I wonder if you get the fine pitch ball screws with that ? + encoders on both rotary axes "Thrown in" for $270k base price.
Thanks for posting that!
Cheers,
Eric
The machines's A and C axis drive systems use hypoid gears and DD encoders.
The machine also has scales. The claimed accuracy is very close to the MU4000V.
It also comes with 5 axis auto tuning which comes with renishaw spindle probing. Tool probing is an option.
Supernurbs is also included.
It really is a great machine. I'd probably have one instead of the MU4000V if it was out a few months earlier. But I do like the B axis instead of an A axis for visibility.
Is the MU machine quite a bit more expensive? With the options you listed on the 460-5ax it seems like a pretty loaded machine.
Next question: How does the Z axis travel compare to the MU4000 it looks kinda tight in the video but I'm a 5ax noob so maybe thats typical of this size machine?
The MU4000V list is around 500k. The MU400 was a little cheaper but not much. The Genos 460 5ax is a great machine for the money.
The Z axis travel is the same but the tool comes a little closer to the table on the MU. You really have to look at the work envelope diagrams for both machines, but they are very close. The Genos will actually swing a larger part than the MU because the outboard bearing on the B axis of the MU limits the size of the part. You also have to remember that the Genos is basically the MU400 and that machine has been out for a long time. If there were issues with the work envelope or travels Okuma would have worked it out by now.
The big differences is the amount of tools. My MU4000V holds 48 tools and I believe 64 is an option before you go to a hive. The MU also has cylindrical roller guides on x y and z. The rotary drive systems are also different on the MU. The B axis is a roller gear drive and the C axis is a direct drive motor. The stated accuracy is the same for the MU4000V and the Genos, but I believe the zero backlash drive systems on the MU make 5 axis simultaneous motion more accurate than the Genos.
Like other Genos machines some of the options are limited. I'm waiting for conformation that air through the trunnion is available on the Genos. My sales rep already said an auto door is not available.
The Z axis travel is the same but the tool comes a little closer to the table on the MU. You really have to look at the work envelope diagrams for both machines, but they are very close. The Genos will actually swing a larger part than the MU because the outboard bearing on the B axis of the MU limits the size of the part. You also have to remember that the Genos is basically the MU400 and that machine has been out for a long time. If there were issues with the work envelope or travels Okuma would have worked it out by now.
The big differences is the amount of tools. My MU4000V holds 48 tools and I believe 64 is an option before you go to a hive. The MU also has cylindrical roller guides on x y and z. The rotary drive systems are also different on the MU. The B axis is a roller gear drive and the C axis is a direct drive motor. The stated accuracy is the same for the MU4000V and the Genos, but I believe the zero backlash drive systems on the MU make 5 axis simultaneous motion more accurate than the Genos.
Like other Genos machines some of the options are limited. I'm waiting for conformation that air through the trunnion is available on the Genos. My sales rep already said an auto door is not available.
Good to know. That's like a $20k option for our Genos M560's.
Yup, and the 5 axis machines have supernurbs in all five axis. I'd hate to see the quote for that!
So does this 5ax genos carry the same overall philosophy as the genos V mills, that being an enormously capable machine at a modest premium over the rest of the class? In other words a kick ass value? What else is in this range of capability..Mazak have a mid range 5ax? Hardinge did, not sure if they still do. Doosan?
The MB/Genos iron, with quality components for the 5ax, servo tuning, and 5ax super nurbs....that should handle 90% of the 5ax work in the world I would think.
Time to start rolling pennies...
The MB/Genos iron, with quality components for the 5ax, servo tuning, and 5ax super nurbs....that should handle 90% of the 5ax work in the world I would think.
Time to start rolling pennies...
ricardo_gt
Aluminum
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2012
- Location
- Portugal
What direct rivals does it have?
G-Auto
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2006
- Location
- Montco, PA
Air thru trunnion
Let us know about the air through trunnion Edster. I am looking at this machine also.
Let us know about the air through trunnion Edster. I am looking at this machine also.
gkoenig
Titanium
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2013
- Location
- Portland, OR
For about the same money? Matsuura MX and the new DMU 50 Gen III.
Or spend about $60k more (base list pricing) and Hermle has the new C250... and if Hermle is an option, Hermle is the answer.
ricardo_gt
Aluminum
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2012
- Location
- Portugal
Hermle is the top spot! If okuma can get close with lower price, it will be the choice to go, but...hermle is hermle.
cameraman
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
So does this 5ax genos carry the same overall philosophy as the genos V mills, that being an enormously capable machine at a modest premium over the rest of the class? In other words a kick ass value? What else is in this range of capability..Mazak have a mid range 5ax? Hardinge did, not sure if they still do. Doosan?
The MB/Genos iron, with quality components for the 5ax, servo tuning, and 5ax super nurbs....that should handle 90% of the 5ax work in the world I would think.
Time to start rolling pennies...
I'm chewing through "Proposals" right now.
Frankly (the Genos M-460V - 5ax), is actually a bit of an upgrade from the MU 400V-II .
I have to admit I'm pretty taken with the M460V-5ax, especially as I had gotten quotes and deeper specs on the MU 400V-II quite some time ago.
Hard not to drewl into my keyboard, so maybe I switch to an I-pad or some such as is it's easier to wipe down.
Edster's MU4000V really is a dream machine, without doubt.
I agree the one thing that is indeed deceptive about the Genos M460V 5ax is that indeed (as Edster says) it can swing nearly 30" wide part, and the table is 400mm in diameter and (I think) the Y travel is 18" / 9" to and fro from the center of the table. (Right now not sure how close the spindle nose can get to the table when the trunion is tilted 90 degrees). The spindle genuinely has 30" of travel in X. [I have always had secret "Soft spot" for the MB -460 as the working volume vs rigidity is very very sweet indeed].
Pitch on ball screws (in mms) is X=20, Y=20 and Z = 16. (So that's the same pitch on the Genos M-460V) vs. MB models.
As Edster says scales on all axes, but specifically glass scales (and absolute scales) on XYZ and A and C. There are no compromises at all on that front I'm really glad they took that seriously (to have absolute scales on all axes linear and rotary).
The one thing I like about Okuma is they use absolute encoders.
The "Stand out" for me is you know with Okuma that thermal compensation is not BS. So having those scales in conjunction with Okuma's thermal compensation (strategies) is especially meaningful.
Might dig deep on the Super-Nurbs (being a super-nerd). For more organic flowing geometries (outside of mold work) whether Nurbs make a hell of lot more sense than "classical" G-code.
Random nice facts about the Genos M460v-5ax ... 32 tools and 15k spindle.
Yes the thermal comp does work on Okuma stuff. I think the V mills have 9 sensors driving the comp math I would expect a 5ax machine to have more. Motion control is the real star of the Okuma mills I think, coupled with the rigidity and comp they just work really well. I'd love to see a video of 5ax super nurbs, the 3ax video is impressive and I know that the V mills can lay down some really nice organic surfaces even with the standard Hi-cut pro.
Yeah, nice machine. If they deal a little on price I think they have a real winner. They either need to perform like a Hermle or stay far away from that price point.
cameraman
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
Weehhhhlll, they are running a bit of special at the moment, Base price $250K if you get your order in before the end of the year. (Otherwise It's probably going to be "locked-in" at $275K-ish base price). For an Okuma 5 axis machine that has scales on all axes that's pretty damn good I think.
That's a good "Devil's advocate" kind of question lol.
To my eye, there's still quite a continuum of price points and machines from $150K to $375K
If I was nibbling at the $350K-400K mark then Makino have some (mechanically) very remarkable machines. Depends how much of a Fanuc fan one might be ;-).
So Hermle introduced the C250, that's a deliberately designed model to be affordable (i.e. they get to sell more machines, so perhaps they won't be incrementally squeezed out of the market by their nearest competitors.). Normally a Hermle starts around $450K ish...
I would doubt somewhat that the sim-ish 5 axis contouring ability of the Okuma Genos M460V-5ax would "Match" a top drawer Hermle. I think Okuma has made the trunion work as well as a non direct drive system possibly can. But on the other hand Okuma know their own market very well and the types of parts that folks typically run on their machines. Obviously the MU-400V-II has to at least do justice to an impeller or blisk and similarly with the Genos M-460V 5ax. Theoretically a lot of so called sim-5 axis moves are better accomplished in a "positional" way. I.e. 3d contour, contour, contour, then position move, contour, contour, contour, position move...* But low vibration and good thermal compensation and control is still needed (almost mold like capability), but having nearly all axes gyrating at once for finishing passes is a really tall order for any machine, in terms of mind numbing precision and continued accuracy that IS really required, + really good shop environment. Obviously Hermle have that really worked out in a very balanced way.
Basic notions of quality are an important co-factor for whether someone would pull the trigger on an Okuma Genos M460V 5ax at that price point , (beyond just being familiar with the control). So they claim (and I believe them) they have 200 inspection points at the factory in Japan where they map out your pitch error compensation for ball screws and like... Basic complete calibration of the machine is going to be a very high quality and consistent affair. Secondly the machine itself is going to last a very long time, really good enduring value (not sure about total cost of ownership), and obviously all the fittings are top notch. The overall design is very simple (which is GOOD), and the MU-400-II platform is very well understood, so in some sense one is buying security in a well proven platform. What appeals to me is the possibility of a very well tweaked and repeatable set of processes on such a machine as it IS thermally very stable. On some other not so well defined and controlled machines there can be too many squirrely variables to be able to close in on more accurate geometries and surfaces in a repeatable way. That's the challenge and I think Okuma are very good for that.
It would be really interesting to see and FEEL and test (a bit) the quality of parts (in the right hands) that can come off the M460V-5ax .
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* But having said that there are some old youtube videos with MU-400 showing really good looking sim -5axis moves and parts thereof? I think the mantra (from Okuma) seems to be that the Genos M460V-5axis is identical to the MU400-VII (with arguably some improvements) ... Definitely a "quantum leap" in terms of price vs. performance from Okuma on the 5 axis front. They say they have been able to bring the price down as they have one standard model on their production line.
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The one standard model thing is what they have always said about Genos mills. They aren't really lesser machines just one size fits all. I think they are trying to make this the bang for your buck machine to have for 5ax same as the Genos 3ax. It worked for the 560. They don't sell many 3ax 460's so yeah, make those into 5ax. Brilliant!
cameraman
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
What's the difference between MU 400 V II VS. Genos M -460V-5ax
I think Okuma really mean it when they say the Genos M-460V 5ax is identical to the MU 400 V II.
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I erroneously thought that the MU 400 V II had finer pitch ball screws, like an MB, but it doesn't.
MU 400 VII actually had ball screw pitch (in mms) of X = 20, Y = 20, and Z = 16. Which IS the same as the Genos M-460v 5ax.
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Genos M 460V-5ax actually has 32 tools as standard (only option) whereas MU 400 V II had 20 tools (magazine ATC) as a base offering.
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Genos M 460V-5ax has a 15K spindle (as standard/only option) 30/25 HP , whereas MU 400 V II had a 8000 rpm spindle (15/10HP) as standard base offering.
[In Europe I think there maybe a 3 year warranty on the 15K spindle there].
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Price!
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Will add random differences as I stumble across them.
But the differences seem to be in a very positive direction.
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Word on the street (at least locally) is that Genos M-460V 5ax is being "tremendously successful" "straight out of the gate"...
People are buying them ! (Personally I think this is a great and wonderful move by Okuma without doubt).
Definitely the missing piece of the puzzle that (over time) makes everything else possible.
I think Okuma really mean it when they say the Genos M-460V 5ax is identical to the MU 400 V II.
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I erroneously thought that the MU 400 V II had finer pitch ball screws, like an MB, but it doesn't.
MU 400 VII actually had ball screw pitch (in mms) of X = 20, Y = 20, and Z = 16. Which IS the same as the Genos M-460v 5ax.
_______________________________
Genos M 460V-5ax actually has 32 tools as standard (only option) whereas MU 400 V II had 20 tools (magazine ATC) as a base offering.
_______________________________
Genos M 460V-5ax has a 15K spindle (as standard/only option) 30/25 HP , whereas MU 400 V II had a 8000 rpm spindle (15/10HP) as standard base offering.
[In Europe I think there maybe a 3 year warranty on the 15K spindle there].
_______________________________
Price!
________________________________
Will add random differences as I stumble across them.
But the differences seem to be in a very positive direction.
________________________________
Word on the street (at least locally) is that Genos M-460V 5ax is being "tremendously successful" "straight out of the gate"...
People are buying them ! (Personally I think this is a great and wonderful move by Okuma without doubt).
Definitely the missing piece of the puzzle that (over time) makes everything else possible.
cameraman
Diamond
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2014
I thought that was really funny, had a good laugh at that.
Normally when you see a machine like that ( I usually think ohhh, small work envelope), on paper/on screen its a little deceptive, but the ability to nearly swing a 30" part is pretty major (the machine also has an extended column "High column specification". On a lot of youtube videos on the MU-400 (old model) its surprising how unbalanced and heavy some of the fixtures look and the trunion doesn't seem to even "Blink" or shudder at all while doing sim 5 axis gyrations or positional. So that Trunion looks pretty damn bomb proof/high torque. Definitely field and battle tested to the nth degree.
I know it sounds a little weird but there is something to be said for an older machine, with nice improvements vs. something very NEW but unproven/a few years of various wrinkles to iron out (maybe).
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As far as not having an automatic door, I did see something pretty sweet last year, with a robot arm, for parts loading and unloading, they used the robot arm to open and close the door... (D'oh.. ). Ok maybe not as amazingly time productive as an auto-door, but never the less I though that was a really sweet work around. I think it was the meatiest version of that Danish (human friendly) robot company (Universal Robots). The robot arm literally opened and closed the door grabbing the door handle (with grippers) in exactly the same way that a human being would open and close the same door (in this case the machine was a CNC lathe) whilst loading and unloading the part. For some MTBs you have to option everything up front and later add-ons/retrofits are simply not possible; so I thought that was a nice solution to grant greater flexibility in future if you want to add "Automation" later on down the road without having to decide that up front and hence be more costly up front for a somewhat more uncertain "future" capability that you may or may not actually need further on down the road.
