VMC Suggestions.. Maybe I'm missing something

As some of you know we are having major DMG/Mori service problems with our 1035 and looking to replace with a different VMC Mori or otherwise.. I would like some suggestions on 40 X 20 or 50 X 20.. We wanted to go horizontal but that is out of budget and we need some sooner than latter.

I would like to narrow it down to 3 or 4 options.. I want some solid options but don't want to leave anything out.

1. NVX 5100
2. CONQUEST 1000
3. GENOS M560
4. NEXUS 530C

MUST HAVE'S

1. PROBES (SPINDLE/PROBE)
2. 300 PSI MINIMUM (1000 PSI HOPING FOR)
3. 4TH AXIS W/ SUPPORT
4. 40 TOOLS MIN
5. CAT 40

No drill and tap centers (brother and robodrills are out the question)

Budget- Minimal

Material-6061-T6 95% part sizes range from 1 X 1 X 1 to 5 X 5 X 5 and more and more 20 X 5 X 3 ish

Control- Don't care everything listed is fine we will figure it out.


Anyone comment about anyone of these machines in configuration I have listed and the pricing that would be great!

I can only comment on the Mazak QTN530s, as we have a couple. Quite pleased overall, only goofy things like the crazy heavy front door (which they have changed IIRC). The spindle probe/toolsetter combo is reasonably priced from Mazak, but I don't think there is a 300 psi option, only a 213 or 1,000. We have the 1,000 psi variable units which sounds great, but really you'd be better off with the straight, non-variable 1,000 psi as the variable will alarm out if you can't get to the programmed pressure because the tool orifice is too big.

We have been running a production job in 440C on one of the machines and it handles it quite nicely, and with a 12k spindle, it works well for aluminum (there isn't much difference in cycle time in comparison with our Feeler 15k machine, and many times the Mazak is faster because of the speed of the control vs. the 18i on the Feeler.) Accuracy is good too, I was trying to get a part to first article tonight, two holes interpolated with a 1/4" end mill, 0.298" +/-0.001" - 0.2978" and 0.0009" TP is what the CMM is telling me. This was not the 440C job, but 4130 at 37RHC, and not babying the speed or feed of the 1/4" tool. The machines have good quality components and fit and finish are nice too. Don't think the triple augers are going to be awesome in getting the chips out, it's still a VMC with big, flat surfaces that chips just love to sit on, if you want chip control, look at a HCN-4000 or HCN-5000 horizontal.

Mazak offers a Kitagawa 4th (I'm sure others as well) axis - we put the 200mm units on ours, which can be a bit small, but for the most part, work fine as long as you don't use a big tombstone and drill too far off center. I thought the 4th was pretty reasonable compared to a Koma set up on a Fanuc, you'll save about $10k. The removal/install is a breeze too, power down the control, unplug/plug in the 4th, cycle power back on, home the axis and you're all set, no parameter changes necessary.

I believe Mazak still has their "Kentucky" built specials going on - they are geared to build ~200 machines / month and are at less than half that right now due to overall slowness of the chip-marking market. I think they built a lot for the Oil-Country crowd, so if you're ion the need for a big bore, 24" chuck lathe, you can get one at a steal. Anyway, the point is they are dealing and have inventory and special financing on machines coming out of KY. Heck, I'm sure you can swing a deal with anyone as they're all in the same boat, and even some killer deals on Japaneese built stuff as well (ask me how I know ).


Steve

m98custom1212 said:

No drill and tap centers (brother and robodrills are out the question)

Budget- Minimal

Material-6061-T6 95% part sizes range from 1 X 1 X 1 to 5 X 5 X 5 and more and more 20 X 5 X 3 ish

Control- Don't care everything listed is fine we will figure it out.

Click to expand...

This doesn't make any sense... Why would a 40x20 Brother with a big-plus spindle be out of the question, for 1x1x1 or 5x5x5 aluminum parts? Or do you have someone who holds the checkbook, who is just unwilling to accept a machine like this...?

Edit - I see how you want 40 tool minimum - It's going to be kind of difficult to get any of those machines with 40 tools, unless they allow you to drop the side-mount toolchangers, and go with a chain-magazine... If the budget really is "minimal", then I'd scratch the big-3 off the list, and then get the Hardinge machine, and option it however you can within the budget.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, it just seems like that shopping list, and those want/need options don't really correlate...

for the money you spent on the dmg you could have 2 haas..... not a haas fan but sometimes 2 is better than 1

Jashley73 said:

This doesn't make any sense... Why would a 40x20 Brother with a big-plus spindle be out of the question, for 1x1x1 or 5x5x5 aluminum parts? Or do you have someone who holds the checkbook, who is just unwilling to accept a machine like this...?

Edit - I see how you want 40 tool minimum - It's going to be kind of difficult to get any of those machines with 40 tools, unless they allow you to drop the side-mount toolchangers, and go with a chain-magazine... If the budget really is "minimal", then I'd scratch the big-3 off the list, and then get the Hardinge machine, and option it however you can within the budget.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, it just seems like that shopping list, and those want/need options don't really correlate...

Click to expand...

They never do!

You can get the Haas machines with optional 40 tool atc with a side mount. Is that not standard now for other builders?

We have a 510C, and a 500. Both with 4th axis. No direct experience with a 530. We have been very happy with both of them. Repairs have been minor and minimal. Comparing the service we get with our Mazaks to the service we get on our Mori's......for us.....that decision is a no-brainer. One thing I have noticed, at least in our area.....the Mazak guys seem to know their own machines better than the Mori guys know theirs when they come in to repair them. Obviously different geographical locations may experience something different. Usually when the Mazak guy is here fixing something he may ask me where the best place for lunch is......otherwise I dont see him until the job is done......sign here...see ya later. When the Mori guy is here....I need this or that...gotta run back to the shop...I need you to come do this or that....i'll be back in the morning. Just my experience.

Jashley73 said:

This doesn't make any sense... Why would a 40x20 Brother with a big-plus spindle be out of the question, for 1x1x1 or 5x5x5 aluminum parts? Or do you have someone who holds the checkbook, who is just unwilling to accept a machine like this...?

Edit - I see how you want 40 tool minimum - It's going to be kind of difficult to get any of those machines with 40 tools, unless they allow you to drop the side-mount toolchangers, and go with a chain-magazine... If the budget really is "minimal", then I'd scratch the big-3 off the list, and then get the Hardinge machine, and option it however you can within the budget.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, it just seems like that shopping list, and those want/need options don't really correlate...

Click to expand...

I didn't want people to read into much of the budget... I'm more or less looking for a vertical with 40 tools.

Budget ~150K Range I know list price what people are actually paying or around is different I'm sure, DMG has 60 Tools, HAAS sidemount has 40 TOOLS, , Mazak has 40 sidemount, not sure about the genos. looks like bridgeport is out only 30. The job one of our bigger runners uses 35 tools so the operator is hand loading 5 tools every part.

Drill and Tap- Not Enough Tools and Not CAT 40, we have like 80 CAT40 Holders

We don't have enough work for a horizontal yet they want to go with 5 pallet system off the bat if we get horizontal.


Mike- We are tempting to go with HAAS because we need one now and they have everything on my list.. DMG isn't stepping up to the plate we just scraped a bunch of work because of this machine and that has documented issues for 2 years.

It's too bad you need 40 tools because the Okuma Genos would be perfect, that's a beast of a vmc.
That has 32 standard. I guess you could call and ask them if they have an option for a larger magazine.

A Leadwell V40i, loaded as you described, I would guess to be 140ish depending on the 4th you want.

We have the 5 axis version. It earns its keep. Ours is 30 tool but I believe the new ones are 40.

Any of those 4 machines on your list will do a fine job, with nary a noticeable difference among them.

It boils down to which distributor will give you the best service in your region, and how good of a deal they are willing to make on the machine.

Keep in mind the Hardinge/Bridgeport is just another nicely-built Taiwanese machine, of which there are dozens.

Whereas the other machines are either Japan or US built. (Not sure about the Okuma?)

Also Taiwanese machines have almost no resale value after a decade or so of use, whereas the others would still be very marketable...similar to a used Haas.

ToolCat

Makino PS 95

Maybe check out the Makino PS 95... It has an option for 60 tools.

They designed that machine to have a lot thrown in, such as 430 ish psi TSC and conveyor and wash gun and jog pendent / MPG and many and all coolant options and coolant cooler etc... Normally base price is $140K ish but it is possible to close the deal at about $125 ish... (in some cases) In terms of precision and accuracy is second only to the NVX5100 but is never the less very accurate machine. The real standout on the PS95 is its spindle... [If you believe the Makino webinars], but the spindle is designed with really serious and heavy production in mind (very powerful) and long life.

On the NVX5100 (gorgeous machine) incredibly accurate but base price is $142K and every option is painfully expensive, difficult to get out alive for under $180K for a reasonably well equipped machine.

cnctoolcat said:

Any of those 4 machines on your list will do a fine job, with nary a noticeable difference among them.

It boils down to which distributor will give you the best service in your region, and how good of a deal they are willing to make on the machine.

Keep in mind the Hardinge/Bridgeport is just another nicely-built Taiwanese machine, of which there are dozens.

Whereas the other machines are either Japan or US built. (Not sure about the Okuma?)

Also Taiwanese machines have almost no resale value after a decade or so of use, whereas the others would still be very marketable...similar to a used Haas.

ToolCat

Click to expand...

I'm in love with mazak...the support is spotty but we really didn't need support on our 510c and intergex where I previously worked

+1 on the makino ps95.

We had one quoted for us last year for a job we didnt get.

Seemed like it came with all the bells an whistles standard.

IIRC, It was right around 140k with a 4th.

are all these premium makers using absolute encoders now?
Okuma has had them forever.
nice to turn the machine on and just go to work with no homing BS. Also the control remembers the button state on the control panel for coolant and opt stop etc. not a big deal, just one of the niceties. Might need to go to an MB series (instead of Genos) to get 40+ tools which should blow the budget, i guess.

BTW Premier equip. has a 2010 doosan hp5100 (33" x 28" travels) Hori that is well within budget. fanuc 31i control.

95% alum in that size range??? two new or three used haas VF2s with the 12k spindle would absolutely rip those parts.

mkd said:

are all these premium makers using absolute encoders now?
Okuma has had them forever.
nice to turn the machine on and just go to work with no homing BS. Also the control remembers the button state on the control panel for coolant and opt stop etc. not a big deal, just one of the niceties. Might need to go to an MB series (instead of Genos) to get 40+ tools which should blow the budget, i guess.

Click to expand...

Big fan of the Genos. IMHO it is by far the best machine in the 40x20 area, 15k spindle, 30HP and gobs of torque but in Al you need the speed. The control is fast and easy to live with. Maint is pretty straight forward. Crazy rigid and tons of iron in the bridge design. Cat40 big plus, backward compatible with non-big plus holders. Capable of producing very fine finishes in aluminum. Spindle chiller standard, a really capable thermal management and compensation system, Hi-cut high performance cutting standard, Super NURBS optional. All setup for hi pressure coolant, more than 1K psi I want to say 3K but I can't remember.

The tool count is the killer. I spoke with my Okuma sales rep recently, he said that Okuma is offering more standard options this year with the Genos package. The genos is basically an MB56 with out the huge list of options. It would be worth investigating to see if more tools are an option. The genos can hold 33, because of the random access magazine you can fill the 32 pot magazine and hold one in the spindle without a problem.

You can option a genos out with chip conveyor, renishaw and Tsudakoma 4th but you're probably not gong to stay under 150. Depends on how bad they want to move the machines.

Take a look at the Kitamura Mycenter-4XiD

XD341 said:

Big fan of the Genos. IMHO it is by far the best machine in the 40x20 area, 15k spindle, 30HP and gobs of torque but in Al you need the speed. The control is fast and easy to live with. Maint is pretty straight forward. Crazy rigid and tons of iron in the bridge design. Cat40 big plus, backward compatible with non-big plus holders. Capable of producing very fine finishes in aluminum. Spindle chiller standard, a really capable thermal management and compensation system, Hi-cut high performance cutting standard, Super NURBS optional. All setup for hi pressure coolant, more than 1K psi I want to say 3K but I can't remember.

The tool count is the killer. I spoke with my Okuma sales rep recently, he said that Okuma is offering more standard options this year with the Genos package. The genos is basically an MB56 with out the huge list of options. It would be worth investigating to see if more tools are an option. The genos can hold 33, because of the random access magazine you can fill the 32 pot magazine and hold one in the spindle without a problem.

You can option a genos out with chip conveyor, renishaw and Tsudakoma 4th but you're probably not gong to stay under 150. Depends on how bad they want to move the machines.

Click to expand...

Don't get me wrong... The venerable M-560V has served a great many shops really well, especially those that are making chips for "Uncle Sam". But the M-560V is made predominantly in Taiwan, goes through Japan (which is awesome) before being shipped to the states. So the Genos marketing relies on the belief that you are getting a "cheap" MB56... I don't think or feel that that is probably true. I would be really interested in seeing an MB 56 go toe to toe with a Genos M-560V. There should be real differences. MB56 is not an overly expensive Genos M 560V or vice versa a Genos is not a standard optioned MB 56... In spite of using the same molds for the castings. That's not to say the Genos M-560V isn't terrific machine, but I feel that Okuma America are very clever/geniuses with their marketing... Also the Genos line may have one foot in the business model that Haas has in that replacement parts and service contracts are going cost a bit more (there's sort of a hidden 15%). So "They" (like Haas) one way or another get their money in the end. Never the less seems to work out really well for most buyers and I think what's really impressive about the M-560V is that they are completely reliable and have a very loyal following... to the ends of the Earth.

cameraman said:

Maybe check out the Makino PS 95... It has an option for 60 tools.

They designed that machine to have a lot thrown in, such as 430 ish psi TSC and conveyor and wash gun and jog pendent / MPG and many and all coolant options and coolant cooler etc... Normally base price is $140K ish but it is possible to close the deal at about $125 ish... (in some cases) In terms of precision and accuracy is second only to the NVX5100 but is never the less very accurate machine. The real standout on the PS95 is its spindle... [If you believe the Makino webinars], but the spindle is designed with really serious and heavy production in mind (very powerful) and long life.

On the NVX5100 (gorgeous machine) incredibly accurate but base price is $142K and every option is painfully expensive, difficult to get out alive for under $180K for a reasonably well equipped machine.

Click to expand...

I'm curious about where you're getting this legendary accuracy for the NVX5100. It's is definitely a very nice machine, but it's just a C frame vertical. A buddy of mine has a pair of them, they're just like any other C frame 40x20.

XD341 said:

Big fan of the Genos. IMHO it is by far the best machine in the 40x20 area, 15k spindle, 30HP and gobs of torque but in Al you need the speed. The control is fast and easy to live with. Maint is pretty straight forward. Crazy rigid and tons of iron in the bridge design. Cat40 big plus, backward compatible with non-big plus holders. Capable of producing very fine finishes in aluminum. Spindle chiller standard, a really capable thermal management and compensation system, Hi-cut high performance cutting standard, Super NURBS optional. All setup for hi pressure coolant, more than 1K psi I want to say 3K but I can't remember.

The tool count is the killer. I spoke with my Okuma sales rep recently, he said that Okuma is offering more standard options this year with the Genos package. The genos is basically an MB56 with out the huge list of options. It would be worth investigating to see if more tools are an option. The genos can hold 33, because of the random access magazine you can fill the 32 pot magazine and hold one in the spindle without a problem.

You can option a genos out with chip conveyor, renishaw and Tsudakoma 4th but you're probably not gong to stay under 150. Depends on how bad they want to move the machines.

Click to expand...

We need the torque more we use alot of bigger port tools in larger size blocks..

Joe788 said:

I'm curious about where you're getting this legendary accuracy for the NVX5100. It's is definitely a very nice machine, but it's just a C frame vertical. A buddy of mine has a pair of them, they're just like any other C frame 40x20.

Click to expand...

Naaaaah I have test sheets on those and they are best I have seen out of about 15 40x20 s... That includes machine geometry, spindle runout, ball bar tests, and ISO 230-2 and other standard cut test parts (I have some mathematical tricks to determine whether a metrologist is making the "data" a little too "sweet" or not ). BUT to be frank for 99% of applications it won't make any difference to most people/shops/applications/projects. Also NVX5100 may not be the best machine for heavy cutting day in day out. [For my applications could I get similar results from a Robodrill probably ;-) ]

AND I totally agree that a NVX5100 (or let's say BEST C frame) is not as accurate as big bad bridge style mold machine like a Makino F3 or F5 or for that matter virtually ANY YASDA machine... So I'm not saying NVX5100 most accurate machine on the planet but saying its a smidge more accurate than some of the other really good 40x20's. One could infer that the good people in Japan / original Mori group as a matter of principal made sure that that was so. Actually it's not "legendary" accuracy it's more of a new thing as customers in high tech industry are looking more/increasingly for those kinds of numbers.