What CNC retrofit candidate for my space?

Let me just preface this with some important information.
i have to get this bad boy to fit in a 2nd garage that has an 8 ft entry 9ft ceiling and 10ft walls (side to side) and will have to pay a rigging company to move it given my 45 degree angle cursed driveway and some other things that arent so "friendly" when it comes to this project. Im going to go for a retrofit, since i have nothing but time and im not on a time is money basis for this project. Ive been thinking of some form of a knee mill because i dont have the room or power supply for a VMC but still want something more than the CNC'd grizzly g0704 which i had but sold to put funds towards this project. This will be used to engrave, as well as cut aluminum 90% of the time and steel maybe 10% of the time. I am going for a PC based retrofit versus a Centroid control or similar, since i dont need the machine up and running ASAP and i already have Solidworks and a CAM integration for Solidworks. I know that the Knee mills arent as rigid as a VMC and cant cut as fast, etc. but coming from my CNC'd Grizzly, it sure has to be a step up. Id prefer something catastrophic like a dead control or similar that way i could get it for near scrap cost, but still have a good base to build off of. My time frame for this project is going to be over 6 months if thats realistic enough with my 5-7k budget. Im looking for something that provides a good, finished product vs. something with speed, if it takes longer to make, so be it, so long as it looks good As far as what i know of thats out there, the bridgeport BOSS's are what ive researched the most, but i know there are many, many other brands/ models out there, just trying to figure out whats better off as scrap and what machines are worthy of a retrofit.

As far as why i dont purchase a tormach and call it done? I figure dollar for dollar, a good retrofit will be more capable than the Tormach and i dont necessarily need a turnkey system right away.

What im asking for: Advice mainly, im here to listen and learn, not to waist peoples time, advice on what type of machine (is there something besides a knee mill i should be looking at)?, where to look at besides fleabay and craigslist, your experiences, what to look out for, and what makes a good candidate and a bad candidate for a retrofit.

Thanks!

The VMC has:

Toolchanger
Chip containment
Coolant containment
Rigidity
Resale value


My VMC's have both been purchased for less than I've ever seen a modern 3 axis CNC knee mill sell for.

My 4020 VMC was purchased as a mechanical wreck with all the parts to repair it for 1/10th of it's market value. There was nothing electrically wrong with it and the Mits control kicks ass over anything PC based. That machine weighs around 10K and would fit inside your space.

If you have lots of time look for a deal on a VMC. Retrofits are worthless unless they're some kind of specialty machine. Every retrofit I've seen sold has gone for a far less than what the parts cost to retrofit it. And for the most part even my 1979 Fanuc controlled machine would run circles around a hobby style retrofit in performance and reliability.

Well the whole logistics of moving it is the issue. I'm not sure its physically possible to move that large of a machine to where it needs to be. There's only about 20 feet from the doors to the wall and I even with a bobcat or forklift it will still be quite the challenge as there's literally no flat land to move it except for the foundation of the house lol.

Garwood said:

The VMC has:

Toolchanger
Chip containment
Coolant containment
Rigidity
Resale value


My VMC's have both been purchased for less than I've ever seen a modern 3 axis CNC knee mill sell for.

My 4020 VMC was purchased as a mechanical wreck with all the parts to repair it for 1/10th of it's market value. There was nothing electrically wrong with it and the Mits control kicks ass over anything PC based. That machine weighs around 10K and would fit inside your space.

If you have lots of time look for a deal on a VMC. Retrofits are worthless unless they're some kind of specialty machine. Every retrofit I've seen sold has gone for a far less than what the parts cost to retrofit it. And for the most part even my 1979 Fanuc controlled machine would run circles around a hobby style retrofit in performance and reliability.

Click to expand...

brennon272 said:

Well the whole logistics of moving it is the issue. I'm not sure its physically possible to move that large of a machine to where it needs to be. There's only about 20 feet from the doors to the wall and I even with a bobcat or forklift it will still be quite the challenge as there's literally no flat land to move it except for the foundation of the house lol.

Click to expand...

Well, If you think you can or you can't- You're right

This is moving in my 17.5K lb 11' tall Mori. The first picture is looking out my kitchen window. Some of the mill is going over the eve of the house by about 3/4" right there. The other side is sliding on a power pole. The second picture is the grade up to the door. The third picture is rigging it off the trailer and onto uneven gravel with firewood, 20 sheets of OSB cut into 16" squares and a few mechanical 15 ton jacks.

No forklift has been used to move a machine bigger than my Bridgeport in my shop.

The last picture is quite deceptive as far as space goes and messy but I recently moved so I threw some stuff in there for the weekend lol.

Not sure what the deal is, tapatalk didn't upload my pictures

9 foot ceiling no problem,
something like a fadal VMC15 or a Haas mini mill would both fit and aren't that heavy
Tormach pcnc1100 is actually a real 3axis capable of 4 axis will run circles around a BP conversion.
think of it as an in between a larger vmc and a kneemill
now if you are going to go with a cnc knee mill just buy it already that way.
don't under estimate the value of a tool changer

What would the cost for a vmc 15 be? I know the Haas's run fairly expensive at 15-25k. There's also a VF-0 on eBay for 3k but it needs spindle drivers I believe.

A series 10 Acroloc is pretty darn small, and would cost about as much as the PC to do a Mach conversion...

We were in an old elementary school gymnasium, and it fit through the double doors.. They look deceptively big, but the side covers
come off and it loses about 5 foot of width.

The last one I dealt with, I bought for $1800, General Numerics control (a Fanuc 6MB), 16x32 travels, 2speed 5hp spindle, 30 plus
toolholders, piles of collets and a 4th axis. Everything worked but the 4th, and the coolant pump. Not the most rigid thing
going, but it made us a lot of money, and Fanuc based (at least that one was) so somebody knows how to work on it.

A lifetime ago, I started out in the garage.
I took a few parts off of a 40" VMC, laid the wire-tack over on it's side, removed the Z axis motor, and we slipped it into a door less than 7' tall.
Once Inside I cut trap doors into the ceiling, and installed the Z axis motor.

It slipped in the door rolling on 1/2" rods. We pulled it in with a come along.
We buried I-beams in the yard in front of the shop, and slid the machine along on them.

We used the garden tractor with plenty of weights on it to move it around in the tight spaces.

Don't waste time with a knee mill! Or a retrofit....

brennon272 said:

What would the cost for a vmc 15 be? I know the Haas's run fairly expensive at 15-25k. There's also a VF-0 on eBay for 3k but it needs spindle drivers I believe.

Click to expand...

Look at the Fadal VMC 10, 15, 40, and 3016, with a CNC88HS control, they are all pretty close to the same height and cost. Each will have their own things to fix issues, but in general the fix it's are all the same. Best home shop machine out there with all the support and parts available, and keep in mind you will need a phase generator if you don't have 3 phase power. There are some very, very few that are set up single phase. These machines can go for 9 to about 16k.

Here are some examples:

fadal vmc 15 | eBay

Those are a bit out of my price range and I'd really prefer something with single phase power. Like I said this machine isn't and doesn't need to put bread on the table for me. This is more of a tool for my small time gun business on the side and because I've got some health issues that prevent me from standing up and turning the wheels manually. I will also be present when the machine is running as well.

If you can't stand up and crank handles you might not want to do the rigging yourself.

Bottom line to me is "real" CNC machines have the potential to generate income. They can do and do whatever you tell them to.

If you want to babysit one and change tools go for it, but if you ever get one that does it by itself you won't go back.

On one of my current mills I had to fix the toolchanger awhile ago. It needed a $5K encoder. I made a new encoder using the machine, but no toolchanger. I deeply hated changing tools by hand to make the parts to fix the toolchanger.

If you think you want to do it by hand- Go for it. Just be aware when you're doing it you could have bought a machine that does it for you if you had a little more patience or a little more cash.

your comparing centroid vs a computer based controller shows that you aer off to a bad start. If you are thinking of going with anything from a Vendor like CNC4PC or PMDX I say prepare to regret it. I have a an entire package for sale of 4 SEM servos CNC4PC C32 BOB and ethernet smooth steppers drivers and everything VFD etc etc etc for $2000. I a lesson and will be trying out mach motion after he gave me an in writing money back guarantee. I just need to save up the $10,000 All the big boys run everything PC based but they all have serious post processors esp the Centroid and somewhat with Mach motion, but if you talking Ethernet smooth stepper then


Can't rapid without lost steps, major hickups here and there causing broken end mills and tool holder right and left. Please find professional help before you get started, not just some lowlife vendor that wants to sell you crap you don't need that will only make things worse. Now on the other hand, do you want to pay $2000 for some beat up iron and another $10,000 for all the control components and then later on another $7000 restoring that iron or get a Haas Mini for $30,000 and not have to worry about anything. I sure wish I could afford that Haas Mini. If knew that I could feed that thing with constant work, I'd be getting one myself.

I run a converted aniliam bridgeport, no friking windows, ubuntu and EMC2 driving a home made opto isolated BOB and then G320 Geko drives (supposedly better out there these days, but they have done me proud think a return in the several hundred times cost region in work done). Reliable as the pyramids, zero down time since day one, no issues, no missed steps or other crap. Yeah, i am a qualified electronics engineer and putting stuff like this together is akin to peeing in a swimming pool whilst standing in the middle of it :-)

Yeah, no tool changer and that sucks. God do i miss it some days too, but then, you can live with out it, its amazing just how much you can do with one tool, even if its slower, if your then running something else, it can be a real money spinner. Its hard to get much better than Plus - minus half a thou too, but then thats more than good enough for all my needs, i don't do high precision work.

Nodable, rotatable head, for my needs priceless!! I could not do about 50% of the value of the work i do on a conventional 3 axis VMC of the typical 40x20 variety. Oftern my parts are over 5 Feet long and over hang the table. Personal favorite, was doing some profiling in the end of 8x2" flat that cleared the floor by 1/2" when hung over the side of the table with the turret span around :-) Would have needed a big VMC to do that! Or a very expensive angle head!!

Based on current work - income from that, a typical smaller VMC would be a loss making venture for me if it replaced my current Knee mill. That said, one day i would love a robo drill or similar, But space is more of a limiting factor to that than machine price tag!

My advice,work out what your real needs actually are, ignore the peddelers that made the mistake of buying way more machine than they need and paying dearly for it. Remember, its in your case to make the bits you want, in a buisness case its to turn a profit. Don't forget that. Its really not what you have but what you can do with it that sets you apart.

my 2cents, try looking for at tree journeyman, i picked up my 325 for around what your budget is, has served me pretty good and its in my basement. fit thru double doors

Greetings,

Lots of interesting idea's. As to retrofit... if you learn how to do this... you can do a lathe, grinder, and many other things around your shop. As well, you have learned something. Just because someone else, could not figure it out... means nothing. So they went out and bought a Milling Center and it works, of course it does... or will it??

When you own a Milling Center, they are way more expensive to maintain. When a motor goes out on a Haas... they will normally sell you the motor and all the cables. This is because so many times, the cables and motors go bad togather. My Haas did this. Bang, just as soon as I bought it... a $2500.00 repair.

I bought a Haas VF3... and used it for a large project, approx. $250,000 of work. But once done... sold it. It was a nice machine... REAL Accurate... Bought for $18,000.00 plus moving expense.

Here is the thing, there are so many folks on here, and other forums, who have retrofit equipment, with success, and are running these machines today, making good parts. So if you want to retrofit, any machine, then go for it. There are enough people who have done it... that you can get answers, to the most complicated problems.

I have retrofit, Bridgeports, Routers, CNC Machines like Fryers, and even the benchtop machines... and I have not had any major problem with them. They are all running now for years... and all making parts... for me and my customers.

Pick a good solid machine, put some motors there on, and buy the drives that match the motors, and there are lots of Software solutions that can make that machine run like a top!

We can help with your retrofit as well.

Food for thought...

I found a deal on a dead Milltronics Partner 4 (knee mill) with a Centurion 5 control, had been sitting in some guys garage with no power for 5 years plus. This is a machine that uses a pc based control, so for $300 or so, I was able to rebuild the computer with a new motherboard, added a 2mb compact flash card to hold expanded memory and all the software. The machine, with it's 5hp spindle motor is comfortably happy being fed single phase instead of three phase.

It took me a couple months to get it all running well, chased a few odd issues for a long time, but then figured most of them out.... still have errant speed issues on the mill spindle... sometimes it's commanded speeds, sometimes it way faster.... not much of an issue for aluminum parts, but problematic when tapping. I added a tachometer to the machine to determine when I wasn't running exact commanded speed.

As others have stated, no tool changer is a royal pain in the ass, but I do make my own product and turn out a lot of decent parts with the machine. All that said, you could do a lot worse than look at Milltronics iron.... the advantages are you have servo driven motion, real servo amps, and the motion control using the Centurion software is nice, maybe not the worlds greatest, but leaps and bounds better than Mach 3, Flashcut and maybe even the Centroid stuff (I don't have as much experience with that one). All of the machines power can be single phase, especially if you stay with the 5hp machines, if you get into the ones that are enclosed and tool changers, most had 7.5hp spindles, so you might need a phase converter or much larger VFD for one of those.

You can see what sort of stuff I make on my website... Home

That's very cool and thanks for the advice. Something with a tool changer I don't see happening unless its a screaming deal. So where should I look for mills? Ive been cowering flea bay and craigslist but I live in Georgia so naturally (I have the worlds worst luck) there's nothing really for sale on these sites. There's tons of online used machine dealers but they make you call to get a price and you're paying middle man markup. Just something to mill 6061 and 7075 aluminum the occasional steel piece and engraving is all and the machine will only be ran 2-4 days out of the week. I just want/need something bigger than my used to own grizzly g0704 cnc conversion

I found mine with Craig's List, but check with local dealers too, they always "know somebody" that wants to get rid of something. It did take me a year or so to find one.... patience will be directly related to the size of your wallet.