wrong axis controller board on fadal machine?
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    Default wrong axis controller board on fadal machine?

    Hey guys! remember me? probably not. Some time ago i asked about a fadal with resolver error on all axis. We gave up on it but today i started to troubleshoot it and found this.
    img_20170503_161953.jpg
    after checking the boards i saw it has a 1400-4 cpu board and the axis control board it has installed is a 1010-1 wich according to this chart https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/A...patibility.pdf
    it's not compatible. But it was working fine for about 2 weeks when we got it then it died. you guys think if i replace the axis control board with a 1010-4 will get it running?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jack123529 View Post
    Hey guys! remember me? probably not. Some time ago i asked about a fadal with resolver error on all axis. We gave up on it but today i started to troubleshoot it and found this.
    img_20170503_161953.jpg
    after checking the boards i saw it has a 1400-4 cpu board and the axis control board it has installed is a 1010-1 wich according to this chart https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/A...patibility.pdf
    it's not compatible. But it was working fine for about 2 weeks when we got it then it died. you guys think if i replace the axis control board with a 1010-4 will get it running?
    I've had that PDF printed and sitting over here next to my desk for quite some time.. I don't believe its
    completely accurate since I have a machine out here that according to that chart should not run.

    Throwing boards at a machine is a waste of money.. You have to do it occasionally if you don't have a "test"
    machine, but if the board worked, and its not working now, its probably fine.

    I always start with the trouble shooting chart in the manual.. The FIRST thing it says to do is to check
    the power supply voltages.. There is a reason for this.. Those Voltages are important (the 5v and 12v).. If your
    boards are old (I'm pretty sure its the capacitors) those voltages become even more important. 11.96V... Hey that's
    close enough to 12V... It might not be.

    The trouble shooting chart helps, but its not the be all and end all... But I suggest you go through it, and DO NOT
    SKIP anything, don't ASSume, check it, then go on..

    So, since I don't remember you (I can't even remember my own age half the time)... What is the problem, and
    what have you done/checked/replaced?

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    The machine is a fadal VMC 4020 with a cnc88 control. When we first got it we had to replace the 1030-1c board because we couldn't get the .nc file in the machine, everything else was working ok, after 2 weeks the machine had an error on power up, it was amp fault on y axis or something like that and it was just stuck on emergency stop error and motor overload error, we called a technician, it was a team of 3 people and they did a checkup and swapped the y axis motor with the x one and also the axis boards and amplifier board and the machine powered up ok for about 5 minutes, then i got the error #17 on random axis and sometimes error #1. They replaced an encoder on motor x and checked all other ones and the motors to see if it had a short but they were ok, they just cleaned them, they also disconnected the cables going to the spindle motor fan because it blew the fuse every time it powered up,the fuse is "spindle motor fan f24 " then i checked the boards personally and found the board 1020-0 had a blown cap, they took it for repairs and i ordered a new one, when they installed the new one because they couldn't repair the old one we still got the same error codes on all axis, i noticed that the component next cap on the board we replaced gets really hot but it hasn't burned yet, we gave up on the machine and tried to find other technicians but only 2 have shown up to check it and they never serviced this model and they just say no.

    I'm going thru the troubleshooting guide now and i'll post the results when i'm done.

    thanks in advance!
    img_20170504_091539.jpg
    img_20170504_091547.jpg
    img_20170504_091557.jpg
    img_20170504_091612.jpg
    img_20170504_091622.jpg

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    img_20170504_091631.jpg
    img_20170504_091717.jpg
    img_20170504_091726.jpg
    img_20170504_091746.jpg
    img_20170504_091757.jpg

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    img_20170504_091904.jpg
    img_20170504_091909.jpg
    img_20170504_091926.jpg

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    I don't have much to contribute to your problem except to agree that the compatibility chart is not the last word in exactly what fadal boards will work together. I have a very early 1984 VMC40 and the 1400-1 board would not work with the memory upgrades that the chart suggests it would.

    I also am very curious about what the exact symptoms of your failing 1030-1c board were, and whether replacing it fixed the problem. My machine will not transfer files above 2400 baud and will not DNC at all, even though it is now upgraded to 1400-2 CPU board and firmware which should support DNC and transfer at 9600 baud. I have had a knowledgeable Fadal tech look at it and have a Calmotion DNC unit, but still cannot get any DNC or speeds above 2400. I have been thinking of replacing the 1030 board, just not sure whether it will solve the issue.

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    Before i replaced it it just didn't get any incoming signal when i sent the file over the dnc at all and i tried every baud configuration available, it was originally at 2400 but it wouldn't work on any, when i replaced it it worked without changing any parameters but 2400 was just too slow,img_20170504_114357.jpg
    i changed it to 9600 and it was working just fine but that's as high as i could get it to work. did you try a shorter cable? i read on another post that if the cable was too long it could give you problems. the other fadal we have is set to 19200 if you'd like to i can send you the number on the boards because i cant remember what cpu it has, it's a 3016 88hs just let me finish a part so i can power it down.

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    I followed this guide http://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/te...leshooting.pdf
    and tested the power but i'm not sure if i'm doing it right, i checked from the last COM cable to every connection on +5 and +12 and im getting 10.4v on the +5 and 26.0 on the +12 i also checked the resolvers as instructed on https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/H..._Resolvers.pdf
    and i got 0.4 on X 1.5 ON Y AND 0.6 ON Z and it should read 1.7 any suggestions?

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    It sounds like you found a problem with your power supply...your 5v and 12v lines are way off. Its off by a multiple of two, so I would check and double check the AC voltage that is input to the DC supply. If you find that is off, then look upstream at transformer connections, otherwise look at the AC side of the DC supply around the bridge rectifier (or just replace the whole DC supply).

    I would address that power supply issue before going any further with suspecting resolvers or motors. You may find those items work better when fed the voltage they expect.

    Now on the axis card version 1010-1, I did an upgrade on the CPU of my 4020 from 1400-2 to a 1400-5 and had to change my axis cards to 1010-4 versions. Not saying you need too... as I talked to a number of people familiar with the control who said they should have worked. I did try with the older axis cards and newer processor; the result was an error right away, but I cannot remember which one specifically. If the machine was operational with them previously, I wouldn't be suspect of incompatibility issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carbonbl View Post
    I don't have much to contribute to your problem except to agree that the compatibility chart is not the last word in exactly what fadal boards will work together. I have a very early 1984 VMC40 and the 1400-1 board would not work with the memory upgrades that the chart suggests it would.

    I also am very curious about what the exact symptoms of your failing 1030-1c board were, and whether replacing it fixed the problem. My machine will not transfer files above 2400 baud and will not DNC at all, even though it is now upgraded to 1400-2 CPU board and firmware which should support DNC and transfer at 9600 baud. I have had a knowledgeable Fadal tech look at it and have a Calmotion DNC unit, but still cannot get any DNC or speeds above 2400. I have been thinking of replacing the 1030 board, just not sure whether it will solve the issue.
    these are the boards on our other fadal
    img_20170504_135348.jpg
    img_20170504_135417.jpg
    1400-4
    1030-1c
    1010-1
    1020-0
    1040-2A
    I get the same error PROPER VERSION OF 1010-4 NOT PRESENT but it's working just fine

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    Quote Originally Posted by wanispissd View Post
    It sounds like you found a problem with your power supply...your 5v and 12v lines are way off. Its off by a multiple of two, so I would check and double check the AC voltage that is input to the DC supply. If you find that is off, then look upstream at transformer connections, otherwise look at the AC side of the DC supply around the bridge rectifier (or just replace the whole DC supply).

    I would address that power supply issue before going any further with suspecting resolvers or motors. You may find those items work better when fed the voltage they expect.

    Now on the axis card version 1010-1, I did an upgrade on the CPU of my 4020 from 1400-2 to a 1400-5 and had to change my axis cards to 1010-4 versions. Not saying you need too... as I talked to a number of people familiar with the control who said they should have worked. I did try with the older axis cards and newer processor; the result was an error right away, but I cannot remember which one specifically. If the machine was operational with them previously, I wouldn't be suspect of incompatibility issues.
    I'm guessing i'm measuring voltage somewhere i shouldn't because i checked the other machine and i get the same results, except this one is been working fine for the last 3 years.
    volt.jpg
    checking voltage in cable circled in green and the ones in red i get 10.4 and green and blue i get 26.0 but since i get the same result on the working machine i'm guessing i'm an idiot and i have no idea what i'm doing
    and the cpu card and axis cards are the same we got with the machine and it was operational and the one we replaced 1020-0 is the same model number. can you tell me where should i be measuring for +5 +12v?

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    Sorry Jack, I didn't find a moment last night to power-up and check mine. Hopefully will look later this afternoon when I get home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jack123529 View Post
    I'm guessing i'm measuring voltage somewhere i shouldn't because i checked the other machine and i get the same results, except this one is been working fine for the last 3 years.
    volt.jpg
    checking voltage in cable circled in green and the ones in red i get 10.4 and green and blue i get 26.0 but since i get the same result on the working machine i'm guessing i'm an idiot and i have no idea what i'm doing
    and the cpu card and axis cards are the same we got with the machine and it was operational and the one we replaced 1020-0 is the same model number. can you tell me where should i be measuring for +5 +12v?
    You're in the right place... The green circle is your common/ground.. The red should be 5v, the blue on the
    left should be +12 and on the right -12v.

    Is your multimeter shot? Do you have it on the correct setting? DC. Are your leads connected
    to the correct ports on the meter? I always keep several multimeters
    kicking around and when I get a suspect reading, I'll double check with a second meter.. Sometimes the
    reading really is bad, I've had a few meters "go bad" and other times its been operator(me) error, you don't
    get good voltage readings when you have the meter set for ohms.

    That power supply looks like an antique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    You're in the right place... The green circle is your common/ground.. The red should be 5v, the blue on the
    left should be +12 and on the right -12v.

    Is your multimeter shot? Do you have it on the correct setting? DC. Are your leads connected
    to the correct ports on the meter? I always keep several multimeters
    kicking around and when I get a suspect reading, I'll double check with a second meter.. Sometimes the
    reading really is bad, I've had a few meters "go bad" and other times its been operator(me) error, you don't
    get good voltage readings when you have the meter set for ohms.

    That power supply looks like an antique.
    I had it on AC, i checked it again and i got
    5.08 on the resolvers i got x0.2 y2.0 z 2.0
    5.07
    5.08
    5.08
    5.08
    12.20
    12.20
    -12.15

    comparing against our other machine i got

    5.06
    5.06
    5.07
    5.07
    5.07
    12.11
    12.11
    -12.09
    resolvers output x 1.4 y 1.4 z 1.4

    the "working" machine has incoming power 220v 3ph and the other one is connected in"parallel" to it, i told my boss it should have it's own power lines but he won't listen and well, he's the owner so, nothing much i can do about it, should i replace the power circuit? can i use a desktop pc one? i read about it on another post but i couldn't find any schematics or pictures on how it should be set up.

    i wanted to add another symptom. when i power on the machine the amp cards fault out, if they somehow work and let me move any axis on any direction it vibrates really bad around the 4 + - inch mark and faults out.

    Thanks for the help!

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    Those voltages look pretty spiffy...

    HOWEVER!! I've had power supplies that are throwing good voltages and they simply will
    not run the machine.. I don't have a clue how to measure the AC ripple, so maybe it
    was that.

    For years I ran PC power supplies, and no matter what went wrong, I went and changed the power supply.
    I had it wired (and still have one wired) so that a PC power supply simply plugs in.. One machine
    eventually wouldn't run on any PC power supply, and talking to a tech he told me that as the boards
    age, they will eventually pull more voltage, and that modern PC power supplies actually suck balls
    compared to the old ones.. So I bought the new fangled Fadal supply and all was well.

    It could be worth a shot, and then you'll have a backup ready to go. Crappy part is that you don't have
    the Fadal power supply that already has the PC supply on it.. So you would have to do some more wiring.

    Its really simple.. Double check my colors though.. Black to the ground wires, #'s 1-5.
    Then red wires (5V) to the wires going to terminals 6-10. Yellow +12v to #11, then the light
    blue to the wire in #13, -12v. Don't forger the -12v, its the reference voltage for the resolvers,
    if you forget it, you can have a nasty run away.

    You will also have to jumper the power supply since all the new ones are "switching", I think its
    green to black will keep the power supply on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    Those voltages look pretty spiffy...

    HOWEVER!! I've had power supplies that are throwing good voltages and they simply will
    not run the machine.. I don't have a clue how to measure the AC ripple, so maybe it
    was that.

    For years I ran PC power supplies, and no matter what went wrong, I went and changed the power supply.
    I had it wired (and still have one wired) so that a PC power supply simply plugs in.. One machine
    eventually wouldn't run on any PC power supply, and talking to a tech he told me that as the boards
    age, they will eventually pull more voltage, and that modern PC power supplies actually suck balls
    compared to the old ones.. So I bought the new fangled Fadal supply and all was well.

    It could be worth a shot, and then you'll have a backup ready to go. Crappy part is that you don't have
    the Fadal power supply that already has the PC supply on it.. So you would have to do some more wiring.

    Its really simple.. Double check my colors though.. Black to the ground wires, #'s 1-5.
    Then red wires (5V) to the wires going to terminals 6-10. Yellow +12v to #11, then the light
    blue to the wire in #13, -12v. Don't forger the -12v, its the reference voltage for the resolvers,
    if you forget it, you can have a nasty run away.

    You will also have to jumper the power supply since all the new ones are "switching", I think its
    green to black will keep the power supply on.
    so i disconnect all those cables from the fadal power board and plug them to the pc power as you listed? i'll bring one from home tomorrow and test it.

    Thanks!

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    When the capacitors go bad, they allow more ripple current through. Modern power supplies use a high frequency to pass power from the high voltage side to the low voltage side. When the caps go bad, high frequency noise comes through the DC bus. The boards typically have .1uf decoupling capacitors near each major chip. I noticed that Fadal had a conspicuous lack of decoupling caps on their boards, which can lead to noise immunity issues. Back in the 80's, it wasn't uncommon to see a .1uf cap next to every IC on a board, this was just considered good practice; I thought it odd that Fadal didn't, when I was reverse engineering the boards.

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    Looks like one of those pictures your have the scale interface plugged in to the axis cards. Does it have scales? If so unplug those from the cards and fire it up. For that vintage there were some goofy EEproms and if the software doesn't match on the boards your SOL. You should check your I/O to see whats active because you may have a bad 1060-b board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    Looks like one of those pictures your have the scale interface plugged in to the axis cards. Does it have scales? If so unplug those from the cards and fire it up. For that vintage there were some goofy EEproms and if the software doesn't match on the boards your SOL. You should check your I/O to see whats active because you may have a bad 1060-b board.
    I unplugged the scales or at least the cables i think that connect to the scales and i could not jog on any axis or reset from the error and i can see now that the emergency stop button doesn't work at all! could that be causing the problem? i haven't switched the power supply yet because i'm not sure how to do it.

    Edit: if i press the estop i can hear a click but it doesn't display a message on the screen like on the other machine.

    i also found a battery on the cpu board and it looks desoldered, if i press the test button it doesn't power the led, only if the machine is on then it does power up.

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    I uploaded videos with the "stuttering" on any axis
    the noise is more noticeable on min. 1:54in this video
    fadal all axis fail vid 3 - YouTube

    fadal all axis fail vid 2 - YouTube

    fadal all axis fail vid 1 - YouTube


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