Young machinist looking to purchase small CNC milling machine

Akk · Apr 7, 2018

Hey guys, not sure if I'm posting in the right section.

I'm a young CNC machinist I currently work as a CNC operator/programmer/setup person at a jobber shop which I am happy at. I get paid pretty decent for some one of my education level I think (~40k). I have schooling behind my belt, I am in my early 20's living in Canada, BC.

So to get to the point, what I can do:

- Program all Haas CNC Machine's (Lathes,Mills)
- Minor experience with programming on Okuma's, but enough to make a decent part though it may take me a little bit
longer than programming on Haas
- Able to operate Okuma, Haas without any trouble at all
- Can manually program as well as with Solidworks, Mastercam fairly quick and rarely any error's
- Very minimal experience with Gibbscam but with a little more time with it I should be alright

Here's what I have access to:

- Mastercam and Solidworks
- All my tools (Edge finder, precision measuring tools, dial indicator's, and a calculator

)
- Advice from highly experienced CNC machinist's/programmer's

I may have forgotten a few thing's but it'll come when I think of them. So I'm not sure how much I'm looking to spend on a small CNC Mill, but I'm thinking around upwards of $2000? I don't want something big, mainly some thing I can throw down in my garage and be able to mess around with.. eventually leading to making small part's for who ever may need them for some extra cash. Again I'm a pretty young dude, but I really want to start making real money my 9-5 CNC position is really not cutting it as I look towards the future. I am doing pretty alright for now, but I'm trying to think ahead. I live with parent's still and I am looking to move out on my own, out here in BC it's extremely expensive so I really do need to make more money than I do now. Bottom line, getting my red seal and continuing to work for companies probably won't be making me enough money long term and I need to figure out a way to grab some extra income with the skill's that I have.

If I come off as a spoiled cunt or some thing I really am not trying to be I just want some advice from experienced and knowledgeable people that I know are here. Again budget of ~$2000 CAD, fairly good amount of space in garage, able to program anything, and looking for extra cash. What kind of machine's do you think might be some thing for me? Or is my budget totally bellow anything I could possibly obtain? How might I be able to find work? - I could ask my current boss for some help finding work?

Thanks for taking the time out of your day to help me out!

precisionmetal · Apr 7, 2018

I believe if you're very, very fortunate, you may run across a Bridgeport clone machine that has a CNC retrofit on it. This would be a fire-sale priced machine, and would undoubtedly require some work to get operational.

Other than that, you're probably looking at a table-top stepper-driven little CNC machine (the kind you see advertised on eBay, made in China).

You never know though -- you could be the one lucky person that runs across an operational CNC machine somewhere that is being sold off for pennies on the dollar.

PM

Akk · Apr 7, 2018

precisionmetal said:
I believe if you're very, very fortunate, you may run across a Bridgeport clone machine that has a CNC retrofit on it. This would be a fire-sale priced machine, and would undoubtedly require some work to get operational.

Other than that, you're probably looking at a table-top stepper-driven little CNC machine (the kind you see advertised on eBay, made in China).

You never know though -- you could be the one lucky person that runs across an operational CNC machine somewhere that is being sold off for pennies on the dollar.

PM

How much do you think I would need to spend to get something that can be worthy of making repeatable part's?

precisionmetal · Apr 7, 2018

Plastic parts? Aluminum parts? Mild steel parts? Stainless steel parts? Inconel parts?

Size of a coin? Size of your hand? Size of a piece of A4 paper? 1 meter square?

What kind of tolerance? Hold ± 1mm? ± 0.1mm? ± 0.01mm? Better yet?

Need more info.

PM

D KIRBY · Apr 7, 2018

In my opinion you are going about this in the wrong way. You are in the trade, and it sounds like you are doing an apprenticeship deal, in reference to the red sticker deal.

Surely you must have an idea what the machinery is worth that you are working with. With that in mind, you must know, that for $2000. you can't even buy a decent manual mill, let alone anything to do with CNC.

Here is what I would do. You are living at home, stay there. Work your ass off, all the overtime you can get, take it, not just for the money but the work experience too and save your money up.
While you are working and saving, get on the computer and check out the prices on the used machinery in your area. That will give you an idea on how long and how much you will need to work to get to where you want to go.

Get away from the idea of starting with a hobby type machine, you are going to outgrow that thing in short order and end up starting over again with something else, and you wasted your money for no good payback.

You may not realize it now, but you really have a world of opportunity ahead of you if you take it in strides. Walk before you run type of thing.
Sounds like you have lots of ambition, you just need to channel it properly.
Dave

friesen · Apr 7, 2018

Find a used haas mini mill, buy a used $3k Honda Accord instead of some 30k vehicle? Cheap stuff just won't cut it here in my opinion.

Akk · Apr 8, 2018

precisionmetal said:
Plastic parts? Aluminum parts? Mild steel parts? Stainless steel parts? Inconel parts?

Size of a coin? Size of your hand? Size of a piece of A4 paper? 1 meter square?

What kind of tolerance? Hold ± 1mm? ± 0.1mm? ± 0.01mm? Better yet?

Need more info.

PM

I think mostly aluminum/plastics/easily machinable is what I'd try to get a hold of. I'd think holding .0004" is something I'd like to be able to do at the very least.

I think maybe I'd need to get more experience before going off and starting my own side work type thing after reading some of your replies. I've seen an Emco PC Mill 50 for sale not too far off, but missing control panel, and software installation disks along with rust on most of the machine for about ~$700 USD. Not sure how the machine would perform as I've not seen very many of them in operation.

precisionmetal · Apr 8, 2018

I don't believe you will find ANY machine within your budget that will hold a 10µm tolerance.

Akk · Apr 8, 2018

precisionmetal said:
I don't believe you will find ANY machine within your budget that will hold a 10µm tolerance.

How much do you think I should be looking to spend? My budget of 2k is not firm it's just what I wanted to start off with.

DMF_TomB · Apr 8, 2018

Akk said:
Hey guys, not sure if I'm posting in the right section.

I'm a young CNC machinist I currently work as a CNC operator/programmer/setup person at a jobber shop which I am happy at. I get paid pretty decent for some one of my education level I think (~40k). I have schooling behind my belt, I am in my early 20's living in Canada, BC.

So to get to the point, what I can do:

- Program all Haas CNC Machine's (Lathes,Mills)
- Minor experience with programming on Okuma's, but enough to make a decent part though it may take me a little bit
longer than programming on Haas
- Able to operate Okuma, Haas without any trouble at all
- Can manually program as well as with Solidworks, Mastercam fairly quick and rarely any error's
- Very minimal experience with Gibbscam but with a little more time with it I should be alright

Here's what I have access to:

- Mastercam and Solidworks
- All my tools (Edge finder, precision measuring tools, dial indicator's, and a calculator )
- Advice from highly experienced CNC machinist's/programmer's

I may have forgotten a few thing's but it'll come when I think of them. So I'm not sure how much I'm looking to spend on a small CNC Mill, but I'm thinking around upwards of $2000? I don't want something big, mainly some thing I can throw down in my garage and be able to mess around with.. eventually leading to making small part's for who ever may need them for some extra cash. Again I'm a pretty young dude, but I really want to start making real money my 9-5 CNC position is really not cutting it as I look towards the future. I am doing pretty alright for now, but I'm trying to think ahead. I live with parent's still and I am looking to move out on my own, out here in BC it's extremely expensive so I really do need to make more money than I do now. Bottom line, getting my red seal and continuing to work for companies probably won't be making me enough money long term and I need to figure out a way to grab some extra income with the skill's that I have.

If I come off as a spoiled cunt or some thing I really am not trying to be I just want some advice from experienced and knowledgeable people that I know are here. Again budget of ~$2000 CAD, fairly good amount of space in garage, able to program anything, and looking for extra cash. What kind of machine's do you think might be some thing for me? Or is my budget totally bellow anything I could possibly obtain? How might I be able to find work? - I could ask my current boss for some help finding work?

Thanks for taking the time out of your day to help me out!

.
you can buy toy hobby machine but it will take 10 to 1000 longer to make parts. you cannot compete with a $2000 machine compared to a $250,000 machine or a $2,000,000 machine
.
like somebody wants a racecar can do over 200 mph but wants to spend only $1000. good luck with that

Orange Vise · Apr 8, 2018

Akk said:
I get paid pretty decent for some one of my education level I think (~40k).

Akk said:
Again I'm a pretty young dude, but I really want to start making real money my 9-5 CNC position is really not cutting it as I look towards the future.

Akk said:
I live with parent's still and I am looking to move out on my own, out here in BC it's extremely expensive so I really do need to make more money than I do now.

Akk said:
How much do you think I should be looking to spend? My budget of 2k is not firm it's just what I wanted to start off with.

Success is proportional to commitment, and commitment comes in the form of time, effort, and money. You're in a fortunate position to have access to all three.

1. You work a day job but have several waking hours during the week plus all the time on the weekend.

2. You're young and hungry.

3. You live with parents in a nice area with access to a garage.

How much of your resources are you willing to divert to your venture? $2K won't get you very far in the world CNC. A handful of hours won't get you very far either. In your situation, you could save up $20K without much trouble to get started with a used VMC, some tooling, and a small amount of working capital.

It sounds like you want to enhance your lifestyle by starting your own business. The reality of successful entrepreneurs is that running a company IS their lifestyle. Everything else comes second.

Akk said:
I could ask my current boss for some help finding work?

Don't do that.

DMF_TomB · Apr 8, 2018

its called return on asset. if you invest even $10,000 will you get at least a 6% return of $600 profit per year ?? and if $10,000 investment deteriorates wears out gets rusty etc useful life might be less than 20 years. will you get your money back that you invested ?? costs includes property taxes heat electric etc for workshop. like guy who have $10,000 garage paying $400 a year property taxes to store less than $400 of low value items. storage costs are often more than items being stored
.
when young if you invest $400/month for 45 years at 6% normal interest from a 401k retirement account you get over $1,000,000.
.
compound interest is a very useful tool

riabma77 · Apr 8, 2018

I agree with everything that Orange Vise said.

Another option is to start with a hobby grade machine like Tormach. A basic package will put you around $10K, including machine, some tooling, a basic CAD/CAM, compressor from Home Depot, etc...

You can run it in single phase from your garage, and use the machine to find with what market and materials you're comfortable working for. Make your $$$ and later you can jump into a real CNC based in your needs, a commercial space, etc...

Check John Saunders (NYC CNC) as a clear example of success with a Tormach.

HuFlungDung · Apr 8, 2018

Lathe is the king machine tool to start out with. A small manual lathe is probably available for $2000.00 and might provide an outlet for your creative urges.

Mills take a shitload of extras, a good vise will cost $500.00 Small mills are so restrictive: you've got very little height available to go from drilling to milling. Even a Bridgeport style mill with a 6" quill travel is barely adequate as a cnc retro, because of the short travel. In cnc mode, you don't want to be touching the table elevator during the course of running a program.

Dream up your mill parts and rent a few hours (after hours) on your current employer's machines. You're probably already wrecked by running real cnc machine tools, you just don't realize how crappy the hobbyist stuff is to operate.

706jim · Apr 8, 2018

HuFlungDung said:
Dream up your mill parts and rent a few hours (after hours) on your current employer's machines. You're probably already wrecked by running real cnc machine tools, you just don't realize how crappy the hobbyist stuff is to operate.

Or even running a $5000 engine lathe as compared to one worth $20k that has both a lead screw AND feed rod.

Bobw · Apr 8, 2018

Akk said:
I think mostly aluminum/plastics/easily machinable is what I'd try to get a hold of. I'd think holding .0004" is something I'd like to be able to do at the very least.

I think maybe I'd need to get more experience before going off and starting my own side work type thing after reading some of your replies. I've seen an Emco PC Mill 50 for sale not too far off, but missing control panel, and software installation disks along with rust on most of the machine for about ~$700 USD. Not sure how the machine would perform as I've not seen very many of them in operation.

You are trying to get into the game CHEAP.. And there is nothing wrong with that..

Cheap, however, tends to come with PROBLEMS.. If a machine is going for scrap value, there
is a reason, or reasons... A lot of those reasons are because the machines aren't supported
anymore and parts aren't available, or they are unaffordable. So when your $2000 machine
pukes a driver board.. Now what do you do??? Hope you can get a new one, hope you can afford it,
if you can't get a new one, hope you can find somebody that knows how to rebuild it, and hope
you can afford that...

Used machine tools.. What you need is PARTS and SUPPORT!!! its more than the initial purchase cost,
its how much does it cost to keep it running, because they ALL break at some point.

I got my first VMC for $1826 11 or 12 years ago.. A POS Acroloc.. The reason I got an Acroloc is
because I had played with one previously, and there were a ton of them in this area, and there was a
tech that knew them inside and out, and he wasn't very expensive. Old Fanuc(general numerics) 6MB, and
as much as I HATE fanuc controls, they are well supported and understood.

I also realize it was a gamble, but it paid off, and that machine is still running, just not in my shop.
Its down the street at another shop.. And by a weird twist of fate, the shop its in is the one it started
life at, and the guy that bought it actually used to work for Acroloc and showed that machine at a trade show,
and then bought it for himself.

At the same time I bought that Acroloc, I bought a Star swiss with a 6T for $1200 I think... I never able
to get it running, and sold it for a loss.

You can do it.. You just have to be careful, and lucky... This is a really good place to ask lots of questions,
and you might not always like the answer, but thats why you should be asking.

Ox · Apr 8, 2018

I completely dissagree that you can't compete with the other guy's $200K machine with your $2000 machine - IF the $2000 machine is slow, and not loose. The rest just boils down to how long it takes you to run the cycle. The $200K machine may finish in 10 minutes what takes the $2000 guy 40 minutes to finish. Having $198K less to pay for, a guy can likely run at 1/4 of the $/hr and still come out on the other side.

The key here is to find old GOOD iron and control. NOT some dink-assed POS like you outlined in your opening post. The day of the CNC knee mill has passed some 15 yrs ago. With what you can buy a used "real" machine for - stay away from those others.

If you can't justify stuffing at least a "750" (30") travel mill in the garage, don't bother. ESPECIALLY if you are already running them at your day job! It's not like you can learn "how to" on some small POS and the upgrade if you think that you can justify it. You already know and are learning on real equipment. Hold out 'till you can find something real - even if it is old.

A clapped out VMC is still 10x what those other things were when they were new.

--------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Kaszub · Apr 8, 2018

As so many time before was said on this forum.......hotdog truck! Roach Coach! maybe something else.

garyhlucas · Apr 8, 2018

You might get lucky too. We bought a 1990 Servo 5000 bed mill with a 4th axis with 10” 6 jaw chuck and 23 Nikken tool holders. The previous owner bought it when they were flush with cash and it didn’t work out for them. Machine had 100 hrs on it, 4th axis had never been plugged in! Had been upgraded to Windows PC control around 2010 so we run CamBam right on the machine.

garyhlucas · Apr 8, 2018

garyhlucas said:
You might get lucky too. We bought a 1990 Servo 5000 bed mill with a 4th axis with 10” 6 jaw chuck and 23 Nikken tool holders. The previous owner bought it when they were flush with cash and it didn’t work out for them. Machine had 100 hrs on it, 4th axis had never been plugged in! Had been upgraded to Windows PC control around 2010 so we run CamBam right on the machine.

Whoops forgot what we paid! $6500 total

Young machinist looking to purchase small CNC milling machine

Plastic

Stainless

Plastic

Stainless

Aluminum

Cast Iron

Plastic

Stainless

Plastic

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Stainless

Stainless

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