yr2000 HAAS VF-0B versus 1994 Fadal VMC10?

aarongough · Mar 16, 2018

Hey guys!
Someone local is selling a very clean looking yr2000 HAAS VF-0B, and I'm wondering whether this machine would be an upgrade over my current machine, which is a 1994 Fadal VMC10.

The Fadal is DC servo, looks like the HAAS is AC servos.

My main concern is the relative quality of 3D surfacing that both machines would be capable of.

My Fadal overall runs great, but I am very aware that I'm up against the limits of what it's capable of in terms of 3D machining. I do a lot of 3D surfacing of hardened tool steel (the Fadal runs 40-50 hours a week cutting A2 @ 63HRC) and I have to slow my lead-in moves to 3IPM on the Fadal in order to stop it overshooting in Z- when starting each pass when doing parallel finishing.

I also get some 'banding' when finishing very shallow angled surfaces on the Fadal, it looks like I'm running into a resolution issue with the machine as the 'bands' or 'steps' (small though they are) are at regular intervals and at the exact same places on every part.

I'm very curious as to whether the HAAS is likely to be better in terms of the finishes it's capable of?

Thanks in advance!
-Aaron

Speedie · Mar 16, 2018

Haas will be faster, more memory

DavidScott · Mar 16, 2018

I think the Haas is inherently a much better machine but it depends on it's condition, it is getting pretty old for what it is. Keep in mind that era control may be the one where if the main board? dies it's a $10,000 fix, Gene has to pay for that F1 team you know. If at all possible I would be looking for good Japanese if it's this old. They will age much better since they are better built, and the price isn't as big a difference used.

aarongough · Mar 16, 2018

Overall the HAAS looks mint from what I can see, but I haven't inspected it in person. The photos show clean original looking paint everywhere, zero chip scour, and only a few thousand hours spindle time. I would inspect in person and I have drawbar force gage, CAT40 test arbor and so on to inspect if it got to that point...

Mainly I'm just curious about how the controls are different in capability in terms of lookahead and so on I guess!

I know I have to be very careful with the Fadal to achieve the results that I do. If I could run my 3D surfacing at 50 IPM I would cut my cycle time by nearly 50%, so if the HAAS is more capable it could be well worth the upgrade..

DavidScott · Mar 16, 2018

You've got the fixtures, programs, and tools, can you test the machine with them? That would tell you pretty tell you what you want to know.

aarongough · Mar 16, 2018

DavidScott said:
You've got the fixtures, programs, and tools, can you test the machine with them? That would tell you pretty tell you what you want to know.

Yeah I think I could come up with a test that would be a fair comparison, you're probably right that's the best way to tackle it... Won't take my whole fixture as 1 cycle take 7.5 hours

G00 Proto · Mar 17, 2018

I've run that vintage Haas and felt pretty good about them. The VF0E was not overly rigid, but it did ok. I have not noticed a marked improvement in the surfacing ability of newer Haas machines (other than spindle speed) compared to the ones I ran back then.

The motherboard of that age of a machine is no longer supported and they will need to do a full motherboard upgrade if it ever goes out. It isn't the end of the world, but it can get a little expensive. You can also still purchase the high speed machining look ahead for that machine. I think it runs about $2700, but it can smooth out some of the surface routines and allow higher feed rates.

triumph406 · Mar 17, 2018

aarongough said:
I know I have to be very careful with the Fadal to achieve the results that I do. If I could run my 3D surfacing at 50 IPM I would cut my cycle time by nearly 50%, so if the HAAS is more capable it could be well worth the upgrade..

Aaron, what controller does your Fadal have? I have the -4 configuration controller and 3D contour at 100ipm without a problem with accuracy on a 1991 4020.

Have you tried programming so that your passes are on one plane? In otherwords if the blade is along the x-axis of the machine and your contouring from side to side to side, then your moves are in Y and Z, then an X move to step over to the next series of YZ passes? With Surfcam this is the "Planar" cut type.

aarongough · Mar 17, 2018

G00 Proto said:
I've run that vintage Haas and felt pretty good about them. The VF0E was not overly rigid, but it did ok. I have not noticed a marked improvement in the surfacing ability of newer Haas machines (other than spindle speed) compared to the ones I ran back then.

The motherboard of that age of a machine is no longer supported and they will need to do a full motherboard upgrade if it ever goes out. It isn't the end of the world, but it can get a little expensive. You can also still purchase the high speed machining look ahead for that machine. I think it runs about $2700, but it can smooth out some of the surface routines and allow higher feed rates.

Thanks! Good to know they approach the quality of the modern machines for surfacing!

From further research it seems like HAAS machines of yr2000 vintage have lookahead (more blocks with HSM option) as well as brushless servos which likely puts them miles ahead of the Fadal!

aarongough · Mar 17, 2018

triumph406 said:
Aaron, what controller does your Fadal have? I have the -4 configuration controller and 3D contour at 100ipm without a problem with accuracy on a 1991 4020.

Have you tried programming so that your passes are on one plane? In otherwords if the blade is along the x-axis of the machine and your contouring from side to side to side, then your moves are in Y and Z, then an X move to step over to the next series of YZ passes? With Surfcam this is the "Planar" cut type.

Hey mate! I have a -4 control as well. Unfortunately due to the parts I'm machining I need to do my passes at a 10º angle to the Y axis, which means all 3 axes are moving at once for each pass. I will put together a test piece and see whether restricting that to 2 axes makes a difference, thanks!

It may be that I need to spend some time tuning my servos, I'm sure they've never been adjusted since the machine was new. For most things the accuracy is totally fine, 3D profiling G10 for instance is fine at 100IPM, but when hard milling even the tiniest overshoot causes flaws that are very hard to hand-finish out...

I have also been considering whether I should be checking my resolvers. In the longer term I will definitely be looking at machine upgrades, but if I could avoid it right now I'm sure my bank account would thank me!

triumph406 · Mar 17, 2018

aarongough said:
I have also been considering whether I should be checking my resolvers. In the longer term I will definitely be looking at machine upgrades, but if I could avoid it right now I'm sure my bank account would thank me!

Aaron, I had to put new bearings in my resolvers when the finish went to h***. You can't buy the correct bearings, so I made disks that took a Mcmaster sourced bearing to get by. Their still working fine a year later. I did source some resolvers off ebay for $100ea, so their not that expensive.

triumph406 · Mar 17, 2018

Easiest way to check resolvers is to take them out and check for play in the bearings, any axial/radial play is going to give you problems.

aarongough · Mar 17, 2018

triumph406 said:
Aaron, I had to put new bearings in my resolvers when the finish went to h***. You can't buy the correct bearings, so I made disks that took a Mcmaster sourced bearing to get by. Their still working fine a year later. I did source some resolvers off ebay for $100ea, so their not that expensive.

Do you have any photos of what the finish looked like when the resolvers started going? I haven't been able to find any examples of what I should be looking for, and I'm a little hesitant to replace all the resolvers just as a problem-solving step!

Thanks mate!

triumph406 · Mar 17, 2018

aarongough said:
Do you have any photos of what the finish looked like when the resolvers started going? I haven't been able to find any examples of what I should be looking for, and I'm a little hesitant to replace all the resolvers just as a problem-solving step!

Thanks mate!

Aaron, I first noticed the resolvers were going when I was cutting some faces at 45degs to the X axis, I was getting a stair step finish that was visually awful, and you could feel the steps. You could try and cut a 45 angle and check the finish.

I checked the servo tuning, gibs, backlash etc before I pulled the resolvers out, that was basically the last thing to check, as gibs clearances were ok, as was backlash and thrust bearings.

taking the end cap off and checking the bearings is maybe 20-30 minutes at most, including putting the resolver back in and rotating to get the table check marks to line up at CS.

This plate was used to press the bearing out

The bearing on the left was the original 1 piece bearing, the one on the right is the disk with a McMaster 3759T46 bearing (R144-2Z)pressed in. The ID of the disk was honed to get a very light press fit. It helps to have a hone for this type of work.

Assembled with the new bearings.

Originally this was made to get me thru the weekend, then get some new resolvers, but their still OK. I should probably put in the new resolvers I have and use these as spares.

wheelieking71 · Mar 17, 2018

You absolutely would not miss that Fadal control once you got used to the HAAS control Aaron.
I know lots of guys like Fadal controls. I can't stand them.
Powering up in the morning? two button presses: ON, and power-up/restart. Its ready to run.
No lining up marks, or silly shenanigans of the such.
Accidentally handle to strokes end? So what, it just stops. No alarm, no nothing. Just go back the other way.
Way fewer key strokes to do whatever you are trying to do. I would say pre-next-gen HAAS control has the best UI on a CNC machine tool ever.
The HAAS will take you about two set-ups to be up to speed. It just makes sense.
I'm not saying its the best or most powerful control. But, it is easily the most user friendly. And, it should run circles around that Fadal.
After that, you would wonder how you made it as long as you did without a real enclosure.
Especially as clean as you like to keep your shop!
I think the big issue for you might be box-way vs. linear-rails? But, I am not the guy to elaborate on that.
I have only ever ran one box-way mill for any length of time. And, it was an old Mori. And, I am just guessing your machine is box?
I watched your video, but I cant remember.

D.D.Machine · Mar 17, 2018

you might think about just adding a Haas but keeping the fadal running ... I have a 96 fadal that I got new and it still runs about 3 days a week... its not fast but its still making me money and making parts as fast I need them ... it was worth 12K 5 years ago and is still worth 12K today.. but has made 250K in parts with ZERO down time in the last 5 years... I could buy a new brothers machine and make the parts 4 times faster but the fixture loading time and the time to push the green button would be the same and I really don`t care how fast it is when I`m not watching it.

triumph406 · Mar 18, 2018

wheelieking71 said:
Powering up in the morning? two button presses: ON, and power-up/restart. Its ready to run.
No lining up marks, or silly shenanigans of the such. .

When powering down it’s SOP to send the machine to home for power off, that’s a couple of presses of the space bar, then pressing 4, and then 2,(edit) this ensures the check marks are lined up when powering down

simples.

wheelieking71 said:
Accidentally handle to strokes end? So what, it just stops. No alarm, no nothing. Just go back the other way.
.

If the table and column marks are lined up when you do the CS then you can jog up to a soft limit without any alarms.

cnctoolcat · Mar 18, 2018

The Fadal resolvers are a known common weakness and failure point. Replacing them could be a worthwhile investment.

Also, I saw in MMS magazine a company is making a full control upgrade for Fadals, taking about one day to install. They claim much faster and accurate surfacing speeds! Might be worth a look...

ToolCat

cnctoolcat · Mar 18, 2018

Here ya go mate:

Bobw · Mar 18, 2018

There is this one also.
I don't think its the same one.

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