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  1. #1
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    Jun 2006
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    Finland
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    Post

    Hi everyone,

    I'm having some trouble with my "new" Mori TV-30.
    The machine was fully functional but lost the
    absolute positioning after backup battery failure.
    It comes up with the following errors:

    Z70 "ABS illegal Error" 0101 XYZ2
    M01 "Operation error"
    S52 Servo Alarm
    Oil Pressure low

    (Machine Mori Seiki TV-30 APC, MSC 802/Meldas 50M)

    I'm unfamiliar with the Meldas Control and
    somewhat stuck. The manual says that these
    need a new zero point adjustment, and I have
    the procedure detailed in the manual.
    Z axis zero point should be set with a 250mm
    gauge block between the spindle nose and table,
    not subtable. Any ideas on what I should use
    as the reference table? The machine is with APC,
    and the manual isn't very helpful.

    The machine also refuses to move the axes,
    swap pallets or do tool changes. It doesn't go
    into MPG mode, which means I can't do the zero
    point adjustment. Any thoughts or tips about
    setting the zero points would be greatly
    appreciated.

    Also, is there a way to back up parameters to
    memory card or by RS232?

    Cheers,
    Harri

  2. #2
    MetLHead is offline Plastic
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    Harri,

    You can turn off the absolute mode by setting parameter #2049 to "0" for all axes. This should allow you to move the axis so that you can check that the machine is otherwise OK. Make sure you make a note of what value this parameter is set to before changing it. You won't be able to do a tool change until you turn the absolute back on, though.

    After clearing the other alarms and replacing the battery, set parameter #2049 back to its original value and go through the zero point setting procedure. Remember to power the machine down after changing this parameter (the drives must power down also, not just the control).

    The parameters can be backed up on the output page. There is a selection on this screen (I think its #3) that will allow selecting the parameters for output.

    The S52 Servo Alarm is an overload alarm. Maybe a brake isn't releasing or you don't have counterbalance pressure (just guessing).

    Regards,
    Scott

  3. #3
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    Thanks for the help Scott, I'll try the #2049 to
    zero. I have several sets of manuals and there's
    some conflict between the procedure. The other
    manual says to set #2027 (G28sft), #2028 (grmask)
    and #2029 (grspc) to zero after noting the value
    for #2029, which is returned at the end of the
    process.

    However the second manual has a note saying that
    #2027 is invalid... Maybe there's been a version
    change or something.

    Here's a quote from the manual:
    "Move axis to position where zero point should be
    set by using P.G
    X axis +210.mm
    y axis +210.mm"

    Does this mean that the zero point should be set
    210mm from the centre of the table or should I
    set X & Y to +210 at the centre of the table?

    BTW, does the absolute position sensing use scales
    of some type or is position just read off the
    servo/ballscrew?

    Harri

  4. #4
    MetLHead is offline Plastic
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    Harri,

    Whether or not you need the #2027 - #2029 parameters depends on the value of #2049 (abstyp). If the value of #2049 was 2, which I suspect it is, then you do not need #2027 - #2028. In either case, I think you should not need to change parameters #2027 - #2029.

    I can't say where exactly the zero position should be set. I'm familiar with the Mits M50, but not with your particular machine.

    The absolute position is most likely being read from the servo motors. But if you really want to know, look at your drives and see if they have a CN3 connector. If you have scales, they will be connected to CN3.

    Regards,
    Scott

  5. #5
    mosheenist1 is offline Plastic
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    Post

    Harri, I know this wont solve your problem now, but, all CNC owners MUST download the machine parameters as soon as they hit the door! Anybody reading this PLEASE take heed, download them now!
    Check with the guy you bought the machine from and see if he has them downloaded. GOOD LUCK
    !!!!!!

  6. #6
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    Post

    Mosheenist, my thoughts exactly.. I learnt this the
    hard way with my first machine. That's why I was
    asking about backing up first. I'll be at the shop
    tomorrow and report back if there's any change.

    Harri

  7. #7
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    Ok, the machine is stubborn as ever, changing
    #2049 and the batteries didn't seem to have any
    effect.
    On startup it now gives alarm codes

    Z70 ABS ILLEGAL 0101
    OIL PRESSURE DOWN

    Maybe these need to be reset to get it going.
    The machine coordinates look ok, but
    absolute coordinates have been lost. The machine
    is sitting somewhere near the middle of the table
    and spindle nose some 200mm from the table, but
    it thinks it's at X0 Y0 Z0 (ABS)

    The error & parameter manual gives the following:

    Z70 0101: "The power was turned on after servo alarm No 25"

    Servo alarm 25: "Absolute position lost"

    At least the light switch works, which is kind
    of cool Not the cheapest or brightest of
    lights though..

  8. #8
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    Just a quick update!

    Part of the problem is solved, I found the hydraulic
    pump, which was turning the wrong way, no pressure,
    no movement. Switched two of the mains lines wires
    and I have pressure. The axes move and I'll be able
    to complete the zero point setting. However, there's
    still a little problem: Z will only move up,
    trying to go down gives an operatio alarm M01 004,
    which is "EXT INTRLCK", "The external interlock
    function has activated and the axis has entered
    interlock state. Remedy: Release interlock, check
    sequence on the machine side/Check for broken
    wires in the interlock signal line."

    The machine's side has no instructions, so any
    ideas would be appreciated.

    Harri

  9. #9
    MetLHead is offline Plastic
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    Harri,

    The external interlock is a PLC signal, so something in the logic is inhibiting the Z- motion. It might be related to the toolchanger. Make sure the tool changer is in it's retracted position. If that's not it, you should be able to check the PLC program to find out what's causing the interlock.

    If you want, I can tell you how to get a printout of the PLC program.

    Scott

  10. #10
    RL
    RL is offline Aluminum
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    Harri,

    I have to partially agree with MetLHead though I don't belive that the problem is with the ATC since you can move the Z axis plus. Usually if the ATC is not at home it will inhibit total Z axis movement. There should be a light on the front panel indicating something like "ATCHP". Here again I can be totaly wrong since the TV-30 is somewhat of a rare breed here in the states. Has this machine been moved? Did you just buy it? The "EXT INTRLCK" is most likely do to possibly an external fixture clamp that is either using a PLC or possibly a spare fin signal.

  11. #11
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    Thanks Scott and RL, I got the machine just a week
    ago but it was fine before transport. It had to sit
    around for a while, which emptied the backup battery
    (only for abs position sensing, everything else is
    ok).

    And yes, please guide me through the PLC stuff, I
    found the diagnostic and PLC viewing screens, but
    don't know exactly what to look for. BTW, the error
    shows up only when I turn the MPG wheel in the
    negative direction, once the wheel is still the message will disappear.

    I can't say if the tool change/APC are ok since
    the absolute position and reference points are lost.

    The machine came with a more than complete set of
    manuals, which aren't very user friendly.

    I'll still give it some more thought and testing
    before calling the repair tech. I also tried to
    backup the parameters etc, but there's some trouble
    with the I/O settings. I'd like to try using a memory
    card, what kind of card will it accept? The manual
    just says PCMCIA, and it looks like type one, but
    I'd imagine there might be some limitations for
    card memory amount because of the age of the machine.

    Harri

  12. #12
    MetLHead is offline Plastic
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    Harri,

    The alarm will only display if you are actively trying to move the axis while it is interlocked. The PLC interlock signal you are looking for is Y1C2. To view the signal using the ladder monitor:

    Press the "F0" key to go to the PLC on board screen.
    Press the "LADDER" softkey.
    Press the "CIRCUIT" softkey.
    Press the "MENU" softkey until you see a softkey labeled "MONIT".
    Press the "MONIT" softkey and then type in "Y1C2" and press "INPUT".

    The signal you are looking for should be at the right side of the screen and looks like this: "--< >". Pressing the "INPUT" key will search forward to the next instance of "Y1C2", so press it until you see a Y1C2 that looks like the above symbol.

    Once you find it, you will see that it is off. Each contact in the rung will either be highlighted or not, indicating whether that contact is closed. You are looking for a contact that is off which is then preventing the output from turning on. The contacts are labeled, so once you find the contact or contacts that are off, see if you can find it in the wiring diagrams to see what it is.

    Does your documentation have a printout of the PLC ladder program already?

    Does your machine actually have a memory card slot? As far as I know, the only output option on the M50 is RS232. What kind of trouble are you having with the I/O settings?

    Scott

  13. #13
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    Scott, Thanks for the instructions. I found a couple of instances of Y1C2, and if I read the ladder correctly, it looks like M3148 and M2591 are off. Also X10 is open lower down, and seems to lead to Y1C2. I don't have a printout and I'm a total newbie as far as poking around the ladder. I'll have to read some PLC basics first to get an idea of what's going on.

    The machine has a memory card slot (standard on TV-30) and I'm just guessing that it must be PCMCIA-I since I've got a second machine (Control Techniques FNC-4) which is about the same age, with a slot that looks identical. The Mori manual just says memory card, The CT FNC-4 says PCMCIA type I) The I/O settings are for the FNC-4 and don't work for the Mori but I don't think this will be a problem. It could be the cable too, which was wired for the FNC-4. I'm more worried about getting the machine running first.

    I already decided to get the repair tech in to do the zero point setting, I'm not confident I'll get it right, and it probably needs to be set properly for the ATC and APC to work. I looked at the soft overtravel points, and it looks like the zero points weren't previously at the middle of the table, which is where the documentation puts it. Another reason to let some else do the job..

    Anyway, I'll go through the wiring diagrams as you suggested and see if I can find the problem. Thanks again for the great help, I'll keep you posted.

    Cheers,
    Harri

  14. #14
    Lectro is offline Junior Member
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    Harri,

    Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Been moving my shop and should be finish over the long weekend.

    I have a TV-30 also and once I get it back under power again, I'll pull a copy of all the parameters from the control.

    I can also tell you that ZERO is with table all the way to the left (X) and all the way towards you (Y). However, that may be specific to the non-pallet machine which is what I have.

    Question? Do you have the 10 tool machine?

    Robert

  15. #15
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    No problem Robert, yes, it's a 10 tool machine. Your description of the X&Y zero points sound like what my overtravel parameters suggest. BTW, I hope you have changed your batteries, if not, I recommend you do

    Harri

  16. #16
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    I checked the electrical diagrams and the ladder manual and neither of them have M3148, M2591 or X10 listed. There's something else I haven't mentioned, the spindle will not start, but it doesn't give any alarm or error code. Maybe this has something to do with the missing ABS zero point... I also looked at the overtravel parameters more carefully,

    X-OT -421
    X+OT 1
    Y-OT -301
    Y+OT 1

    so X0Y0 must have been at the centre of X/Y movement and near the centre of the table. The machine appears to have three types of coordinates, absolute, machine and work system. Does anyone know if the ABS and machine coordinates are linked and could the ABS 0 be reverse-engineered from Machine 0, which is still there?

    Harri

  17. #17
    MetLHead is offline Plastic
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    Harri,

    The ABS zero and the machine zero are the same thing. Actually the absolute positioning is simply a battery backup for the machine position.

    Finding the source of the interlock may be best left to the service tech. If you're not familiar with poking around in the ladder program, you can waste a lot of time looking for it. However, there is a way to manually override the interlock so that you can move the Z:

    Go to the "DIAGN" screen.
    Press the "PLC I/F" softkey.
    At the bottom of the screen you see three sets of parentheses on each side. Type in:
    ADDR DATA MODE
    ( Y1C2) (1) (2)

    Then press "INPUT". This will force the interlock off so that you can move the axis.

    If you still would like a printout of the ladder, here's how you do it.

    Press the "F0" key to go to the PLC on board screen.
    Press the "MENU" softkey until you see the "I/O ST" softkey.
    Press the "I/O ST" softkey.
    Press the "PRINT" softkey.
    Press the "SET" softkey.
    Change setting #1 to 1 and #2 to 1.

    The printout is transmitted over the RS232 port, so you must have a PC connected to the serial port to receive the data. The PC's serial port should be set at 9600,8,N,1. Set up the PC to capture the received data to a file.

    Press the "PRINT" softkey and press "INPUT". The program should begin printing. If you do not see any data being transmitted, try changing the "PORT" setting on the CNC.

    The printout takes a looong time, depending on the length of the program it can take an hour or more. The printout contains some funny characters and may look like garbage at first, but you should recognize device names like "M3148" etc. This is OK, the file must be run through a converter after the printout is done to convert it to a readable format. I wrote the converter myself, so I can send it to you or you can send me the file and I will convert it for you.

    Scott

    [ 11-22-2006, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: MetLHead ]

  18. #18
    MetLHead is offline Plastic
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    Harri,

    A couple more thoughts....

    From your overtravel settings I would say that the zero is actually near the positive end of travel. If zero was in the middle of travel, the overtravel parameters would be pretty close to the same value for + and -.

    Also, I think it's very possible that whatever interlock is inhibiting the Z motion is also inhibiting the spindle.

    Regards,
    Scott

  19. #19
    Harri is offline Cast Iron
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    Scott,

    You are quite right about the overtravel, I was thinking one thing and writing something else. I tried to get the I/O settings right so I could send you the PLC data, but I think there's a cable problem, there seem to be several ways to wire the connectors. The settings on my PC and the other CNC machine are 9600, No Parity, 8 Databits, Stop 1, Flowcontrol XON XOFF only. Setting the Mori this way didn't help. It also has several other port settings, do they affect communication? These are Hand shake, DC code parity, DC2/4 output, CR output, Feed Chr, Parity V and time-out.

    I'm also unable to set #2 to 1 (F0-MENU-IO-ST-PRINT..)
    It says "No Program"

    Harri

  20. #20
    MetLHead is offline Plastic
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    Harri,

    The PLC ladder printout does not rely on the I/O settings. It's output is fixed at 9600,8,N,1. The only port setting you may need to change on the CNC is on the PLC print screen. The cable I use is just a 3 wire cable:

    25 pin(CNC side) 9 pin(PC side)
    2 -------------------- 2
    3 -------------------- 3
    7 -------------------- 5

    on the 25 pin side jumper:
    4 to 5, 6 to 20

    on the 9 pin side jumper:
    4 to 6, 7 to 8

    The fact that you can't set #2 to 1 just means that there are no PLC comments loaded. This is a bummer, but won't prevent the ladder from printing.

    Scott

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