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1986 deckel fp3nc/dialog 4: Power/start-up issue

WazMan

Plastic
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
San Diego North County, CA, USA
Hello PM members in the Deckel Forum.
Brief history: The 1986 Deckel FP3NC with Dialog4 I own has been in storage for seven years. [I'm second owner and had used it when it was new.] Other than a faulty monitor, the machine was fully functional prior to this time. I recently put power to it but it is unresponsive. I "believe" I've reconnected all wires and connectors correctly as I have a 1988 Deckel EDM that has very similar (if not identical) transformer(s) and connections to compare it to. I own all the original manuals but I'm a novice at diagnosing technical and electrical information. [The fact the most detailed info is written in German doesn't help.] I read online there are (3) separate batteries that should often be replaced, but I can not find any of them either on the machine or in the manuals. I've also read: "round type capacitors on the power boards get old and need replacing" but I am not sure where they are located either. As a reference I've posted a few photos of some of the boards and the their lighted LED's.
I know there are many highly skilled, highly knowledgeable and considerate PM members out there - I hope someone will kindly give me some information, instruction, recommendations or suggestions on how to go about getting my old Deckel up and running again. Even a referral to a technician who's familiar with Deckels who serves the Southern California area would be appreciated.

Thank you all in advance,
WazMan
 

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I would try letting it sit under power for a day to try and charge the batteries. After that, I would pull the K10 and 120 connectors in the console, then reconnect them in the same order to force a reset. Go to mode 16 and hit Clear and Enter to run the self-test. Tell us what that says if you get that far.



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rklopp gave good advice.

There is a SAFT RF304 battery on the NSV board in the "PC"-- (inside the outboard electrical cabinet, behind the glass cover you show in photo #3).
Take the top off the operator console, there is another similar SAFT battery soldered to the NSP board which is usually #4 from the right
Once you have the Operator hood off the top, there are quick release fasteners that allow the control panel to flip up on a hinge (2 on the console and 2 underneath). Flip up the console and there is a "6 pack" of SAFT 7.2v batteries located directly above where all the input/output jacks are in the bottom of the console.

When time to replace batteries, it' saves wear and reduces the risk of damage if you solder leads and run the batteries remotely tucked in the console.
 
I would try letting it sit under power for a day to try and charge the batteries. After that, I would pull the K10 and 120 connectors in the console, then reconnect them in the same order to force a reset. Go to mode 16 and hit Clear and Enter to run the self-test. Tell us what that says if you get that far.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you very much for your advise. I will implement your suggestions later this week and will let you know the results. This might be a naive question, but are the K10 and 120 connectors you noted easily located and / or marked as such. As mentioned, I'm not a big tech guy and it has been some time since I've even looked at this machine let alone work with it.

Thanks again, I greatly appreciate your help.
WazMan
 
Thank you very much for your response and recommendations. (Detailed descriptions really help me.) I do plan on taking "rklopp's" advise (as it appears you would also agree trying) and then take it from there. Maybe the batteries will take a charge, if not I now have a good idea of where they are and how to replace them.
By the way, the two replies I've received focus on the batteries being bad. Are the (4) lighted RED LEDs on the panel shown in photo #2 a tell of this condition?

Thanks again - much appreciation.
WazMan
 
Here is a clickable link that talks about the connectors: link. The connectors should be K10 and X120. I mis-typed K120 above.
The photo below shows the connectors in the console after removing the cover. Danger - High Voltage!
WP_20140811_007.jpg
 

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Long since powered up ....first off change the batteries. This will eliminate the question.
Singer in Germany or FPS in Germany are sources for the proper SAFT logic batteries.


Check out this thread regarding the batteries; http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/dead-battery-deckel-fp4a-339999/

If this machine has been moved to a new location (different power source).......
Check the voltage coming out of your step up transformer should be close to 380 v...has taps to correct for minor over or under voltage...BR CAREFUL HERE!!!!! Lethal voltage present at this transformer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also be sure to test all the control voltages with a good meter....Transformers have different taps to allow for low or high incoming power Desired output is labeled on each transformer tap.
There are three main transformers....T1 and T3 provide logic power to the machine.
T2 is the big transformer that powers the servo motors.....
If this all is outside your comfort level, find a qualified person to make the tests and adjustments if needed.....

After battery replacement if still having trouble try to initialize the control (reload the executive). The process goes like this:
Remove cover off the operators console.
Turn main power on (large cabinet)
Power control (green start push button)
Pull jumper K10 off all boards. (see photo in above post)
Pull power connector X120 (see photo above)

Control will turn off when X120 is pulled
Re-connect the wire tape jumper K10 on all boards.
Re-connect power cable X120.

Switch to mode 16 (rotary switch on operators panel)

There should appear a message on the screen telling you to "Quit and acknowledge"

Hit the delete key (3 red diagonal slashes) then the enter key (green arrow head at teh side of a diamond)
Should get a message that the control is testing....

You must then reset the measuring system to inches if desired....
In mode 16 key in "I" and hit enter key...Default will be metric.
Note doing the above process will clear any stored programs etc....

Once the above is done then if having trouble you will need to diagnose from there...

Cheers Ross
 
DSC09928.jpgDSC09928.jpgDSC09934.jpgGood day.
I took your advise and left the machine on for a dozen hours or more in an attempt to charge the batteries. Thanks to your help and others on this forum, I found all three batteries and discovered only one to be holding a charge, the 3.6v on the NSV 90 board in the cabinet. The 7.2V "6 pack" batteries under the console charged slightly but nothing much to speak (barely a volt) and shows signs of corrosion. The third battery (NSP board - upper controller) holds nearly nothing.
Questions: Do the 7.2 "6 pack" batteries need to be NiCad or can they be NiMH as well? Also, I think in one of your posts regarding these batteries you used ones that were non-SAFT (photo was of RAYOVAC 7.2 500mAh ) and I believe it was also mentioned somewhere that the mAh amount is not important as long as it's 7.2V. True? [My brief search didn't discover the 500mAh ones you had pictured].
As for the NSP board batteries, I'm unsure of the voltage (nor mAh amount). I believe you may have stated somewhere they are 3.6V - same as inside cabinet on NSV board - and once DSC09931.jpgagain... is mAh important? I of course appreciate your help and hope you can steer me towards where to purchase these off brand batteries (if at all possible), or must I use the SAFT ones from Germany.

Much thanks, Adam (aka:WazMan)
 
Thanks you Ross for the detailed and very helpful information.
I am currently working to find and replace 2 of the 3 batteries that have been discussed in prior posts in hopes that I can once again power up this 1986 FP3NC Dialog4 of mine that's been sitting for several years. Once power is back on, I plan on replacing the monitor which was known to be bad prior to my start up issue, so I can then properly go through your start up procedure. I could use help locating the 3.6V? battery on NSP Board and also the 7.2V "6 pack" batteries found under the console.

Again... much thanks, Adam (aka:WazMan)
DSC09928.jpgDSC09931.jpg
 
There are common cordless phone batteries that are close approximations of the "6 pack" and NSP batteries, availble at Target or Walmart. Last time I needed batteries I went to a local hobby shop that sells remote controlled airplanes and model cars.

The charging circuits in the machine are designed for the characteristics for Nicads, so you need to make sure the replacements have similar charging requirements or you will burn them up and/or not get proper charging. The voltage matters, think it's acceptable to have more mAh, but best to get pretty close.

Some Dialog machines have a BNC connector on the bottom of the operator console that can accept a TV/monitor, you can use an inexpensive BNC to RCA adapter and a monitor with "VGA" input.
 
Replacement of the monitor is a bit tricky.
Some written on this forum about this,hoping Milacron will chime in here,...but think the issue is the refresh rate. The output of the Dialog video board is quite low and some of the current monitors will not run
at such rates....
Cheers Ross
 








 
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