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44,000 Euro for an FP1 in Germany now.....

Yes, Franz's work is expensive, but it's beautifully done. These machines are (in my opinion) better-than-new. Is the price justified? Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

On the web you can find a bill dated 1971, for the New Zealand government purchase of a 1971 Deckel FP2 (serial number 6858) and accessories. The basic machine was 30,000 Deutsche Marks. Together with accessories, shipping, and a 10% educational discount the bottom line price was 70,855 Deutsch marks. After taking 46 years of inflation into account, Singer's machine is considerably less expensive.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
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The price is not €44000 but €35210
€44000 would be the price if a privat person within the EU bought it
A bussiness in Germany also has to pay the €44000 but gets a refund on the VAT
A privat person or a bussiness outside the EU pays the €35210
I dont know how much import tax these have to pay though

Peter
 
Ok, I just have to ask...this late model has a head on it like the 4M.

The 4M looks like a very capable machine, and looks to have a much larger work area than the FP1. The table is much bigger. in comparing them.

I notice the 4M has servos and can be used either as manual or as NC.

Most important is the 4M has a fairly small footprint in regard to most of the other Deckel NC machines though.

The big question is price. This FP1 is most likely not going to sell any faster

I've seen 4Ms going for way less than the asking for this late model FP1...granted a different beast all together, but point being that it seems to be that a 4M selling for 1/3rd the price of this FP1 is a better deal. I will say this does look immaculate, the table is beautiful, as-is the machine in general. Nothing worse than someone trying to sell a machine that they haven't even cleaned and/or has spooge on it from 10 years ago when they bought the machine without using it. :rolleyes5:
 
Ok, I just have to ask...this late model has a head on it like the 4M.

The 4M looks like a very capable machine, and looks to have a much larger work area than the FP1. The table is much bigger. in comparing them.

I notice the 4M has servos and can be used either as manual or as NC.
The 4M does not have servos, it is gearbox feed. You may be confused about this as someone had a 4M on eBay recently where someone added Servo (literally, the brand Servo) power feeds to each axis at some point (probably because the gearbox feed failed, which is common on 4M models) Only one like I've ever seen, plus Servo made a terrible PC based control. (I owned one once, mounted on a Tawainese Bridgeport type mill)

The FP1 is more desirable for home shops with limited space, you can get more "up close and personal" with it when milling, and you can "man handle" the accessories better.

Milacron
 
20% sales tax? I thought the 8% we pay was robbery. But, in my state, manufacturing equipment is exempt from that tax.
 
The price is not €44000 but €35210
€44000 would be the price if a privat person within the EU bought it
Yeah I know, but apparently some private users are willing to pay that much. It is curious the Germans put the prices including the sales tax, whereas USA prices are always listed without the sales tax. I remember being horrified at the 10% VAT in England when I was there for a month in the mid 1970's.....I think our sales tax was only 3% back then. But now even we are at 8% tax.

Sales tax on machine tools for use by a business in USA varies by state and whether the business is manufacturing or not. Some states there is no tax if for manufacturing use, some states have tax for manufacturing but at lower rate, like 2%.
 
20% sales tax? I thought the 8% we pay was robbery. But, in my state, manufacturing equipment is exempt from that tax.

Worth noting, since I once founded and operated a UK Corporation registered for it...

It is not a GST (General Sales Tax), but a VAT (Value ADDED Tax). The CONCEPT was sold as simple, fair, even-handed, easy to administer, hard to cheat on, and with low reason to TRY to cheat. "Righteous", IOW. Started at below 5%.

A producer pays VAT on incoming raw materials, charges on outgoing finished product, nets back what they paid on the intake. TOTAL tax was meant to be hard-limited, not cumulative, whether there were two stages in production or a hundred and two.

Thus VAT was SOLD to pan-European electorates as a replacement for all other forms of tax!

Other taxes were retained, of course. A Politician doesn't even have to move his lips to lie.

VAT percentages went up. 20% is not the highest. Izzat bad news?
Well.. if one believes the funny-papers, even GOD settled for only TEN percent.

Anyone who resisted - the Swiss, not even EU members - was put under extreme pressure - accusations of criminal "money laundering", even - to force them to raise their VAT so as not to drive adjacent-country business across a border.

As Italians very much do, in flocking to Swiss shopping centers near Lugano, etc.

And then?

As noted. A US or other NON-EU national can fill in a form, attach receipts, and claim BACK the VAT on exit from the EU.

Leaving the entire lot of miscreants empty-handed, altogether. So.. a "subsidy" to encourage exports? Sort of. And one that their own citizens are robbed of.

Twice, BTW, as they still have to make-up for the revenue shortfall each such claw-back causes.

"Advanced Economies?"

Sure they are. Right "up there", sans pommade, in a direct lift from "bum cleaver" in De Sade's The 120 Days of Sodom.

And they voted for that!

Go figure...
 
You may be confused about this as someone had a 4M on eBay recently where someone added Servo (literally, the brand Servo) power feeds to each axis at some point (probably because the gearbox feed failed, which is common on 4M models) Only one like I've ever seen, plus Servo made a terrible PC based control. (I owned one once, mounted on a Tawainese Bridgeport type mill)

Yes, this is the one I saw recently...I wasn't sure if that was original, but it looked nicely done. Good to know that isn't original, and good to know they have gearbox problems. Hard to know and understand all the Deckel models.

The FP1 is more desirable for home shops with limited space, you can get more "up close and personal" with it when milling, and you can "man handle" the accessories better.

While I agree with you, I see the FP2 as being a much more desirable machine for a home shop. The prices I see on FP2s have been in the $6k-$8k range when listed on craigslist, and they typically don't sell quickly. One didn't look too bad, only had the horizontal and vertical and the box style table and they were asking $6k, took about 2 months.

The FP1s sells for less from what I've seen, but not a lot of them around. Still, it's more reasonable to value an FP1 at about $3k-$4k on what the market will bear. Certainly nicer machines tend to bring more, but just basing this on what they seem to sell for in the wild. Maybe my numbers are off.

The one you linked to at the top (hey, wait a sec, Milacron posted a link to an ebay auction ???? :rolleyes5:) is very nice, and I agree with what Bruce said about Singer's work. It is possible he does the best work on Deckels these days, I've seen no other machines matching his results.
 
Worth noting, since I once founded and operated a UK Corporation registered for it...

It is not a GST (General Sales Tax), but a VAT (Value ADDED Tax). The CONCEPT was sold as simple, fair, even-handed, easy to administer, hard to cheat on, and with low reason to TRY to cheat. "Righteous", IOW. Started at below 5%.

A producer pays VAT on incoming raw materials, charges on outgoing finished product, nets back what they paid on the intake. TOTAL tax was meant to be hard-limited, not cumulative, whether there were two stages in production or a hundred and two.

Thus VAT was SOLD to pan-European electorates as a replacement for all other forms of tax!

Other taxes were retained, of course. A Politician doesn't even have to move his lips to lie.

VAT percentages went up. 20% is not the highest. Izzat bad news?
Well.. if one believes the funny-papers, even GOD settled for only TEN percent.

Anyone who resisted - the Swiss, not even EU members - was put under extreme pressure - accusations of criminal "money laundering", even - to force them to raise their VAT so as not to drive adjacent-country business across a border.

As Italians very much do, in flocking to Swiss shopping centers near Lugano, etc.

And then?

As noted. A US or other NON-EU national can fill in a form, attach receipts, and claim BACK the VAT on exit from the EU.

Leaving the entire lot of miscreants empty-handed, altogether. So.. a "subsidy" to encourage exports? Sort of. And one that their own citizens are robbed of.

Twice, BTW, as they still have to make-up for the revenue shortfall each such claw-back causes.

"Advanced Economies?"

Sure they are. Right "up there", sans pommade, in a direct lift from "bum cleaver" in De Sade's The 120 Days of Sodom.

And they voted for that!

Go figure...

Yeah well we have a bunch of pol's, mostly dems that want to do the same thing here!
 
(hey, wait a sec, Milacron posted a link to an ebay auction ???? :rolleyes5:)
Not an auction, Buy it Now....but mostly, it's in Germany and the price is so high the chance that anyone reading this forum might feel annoyed that I "exposed" a machine they might have bought at screaming deal is zero.
 
After blowing up all the pictures and looking at them I've been trying to understand exactly what differences there are to the earlier twin dial type machines. Obviously the castings on the column, base and heads is boxier, base has the coolant pump on the out side, etc.. It retains the dial for spindle speeds and has a separate motor for feeds yet it still has the X - Z joy stick for feeds? It does look as if it has another lever besides the Y axis lock so my guess is it has power feed to that axis also similar to the FP2 and larger mills.
Am I missing something or is the only real difference between earlier machines the variable 3 axis feed rates with rapid capability on the one linked?
Dan
 
As Italians very much do, in flocking to Swiss shopping centers near Lugano, etc.

I dont understand the rest of your rambling post (I have a small mind), but I can assure you the Italian are not flocking to Swiss shopping centers, rather the Swiss are flocking to border-near shopping centers in their neighboring countries (IT, F, D, A).
I was in Lugano 4 days ago and am right now about 5 miles from a swiss border. The Swiss come here because its cheap, even if they have to pay VAT.
Since you are so wrong on this, I hope the rest of your statements are more correct (It is hard to tell).
 
After blowing up all the pictures and looking at them I've been trying to understand exactly what differences there are to the earlier twin dial type machines. Obviously the castings on the column, base and heads is boxier, base has the coolant pump on the out side, etc.. It retains the dial for spindle speeds and has a separate motor for feeds yet it still has the X - Z joy stick for feeds? It does look as if it has another lever besides the Y axis lock so my guess is it has power feed to that axis also similar to the FP2 and larger mills.
Am I missing something or is the only real difference between earlier machines the variable 3 axis feed rates with rapid capability on the one linked?
Dan
Final generation FP1 has Y axis power feed after about 1982, separate electric coolant pump, DC drive all axis, integral DRO all axis with Activ function (electronic stop dog, basically)

The fully integrated variable speed DC drive is a major improvement over mechanical drive IMHO since you can set feed speeds instantly and fine tune feed even during the milling process....that, more than any other feature makes the final generation FP1 way more valuable than the older models.

It's the milling machine that Hardinge should have made to compliment the HLV-H lathe...but never did. Guess they were satisfied with one masterpiece.
 
20% sales tax? I thought the 8% we pay was robbery. But, in my state, manufacturing equipment is exempt from that tax.

If I ever get out to the states to purchase a pacemaker or whatever I will have to pay 10% import duty then 20% vat on the combined purchase price and import duty ..so the tax is taxed.
I can claim the vat back if I purchase via my business but then its not mine in effect
 
Final generation FP1 has Y axis power feed after about 1982, separate electric coolant pump, DC drive all axis, integral DRO all axis with Activ function (electronic stop dog, basically)

The fully integrated variable speed DC drive is a major improvement over mechanical drive IMHO since you can set feed speeds instantly and fine tune feed even during the milling process....that, more than any other feature makes the final generation FP1 way more valuable than the older models.

It's the milling machine that Hardinge should have made to compliment the HLV-H lathe...but never did. Guess they were satisfied with one masterpiece.
I'm not trying to criticize those features and they do sound nice but for around $30,000 more, I don't get that. To me the FP1 size machine is for doing intricate 1 off parts and those features would shine more on big jobs removing lots of material, plus it seems like it's just one bad component on a circuit board away from being a hand mill only or a 3 axis drill press?
Dan
 
I'm not trying to criticize those features and they do sound nice but for around $30,000 more, I don't get that. To me the FP1 size machine is for doing intricate 1 off parts and those features would shine more on big jobs removing lots of material, plus it seems like it's just one bad component on a circuit board away from being a hand mill only or a 3 axis drill press?
Dan
First off you're making the wrong assumption that one has to pay that much to own a final generation FP1.... they don't come up for sale here but maybe one every three years but a really nice one tends to sell for less than $20,000. You're comparing a typical used second generation FP1 to a better than new rebuilt final generation FP1 price wise, which is a bit apple/orange situation.

As to the circuit board aspect, the only complex electronics is the DC drive, which in theory could be replaced with a new DC drive of another make as long as the voltage matched. But easier to just buy a working one from Singer. I've never had one go bad. (Have owned about 8 manual Deckels with DC drive) Oops...yes I have....the one on the FP2 I have now was working, but "weak"....found a bad electrolytic cap and that fixed it..works perfect now.

---------------

(on edit)

It just occurred to me you may be looking at that Singer FP1 with the ultra rare TNC 123 control when you made that "one bad component away..." comment.....as that control indeed might be problematic if it ever failed sure enough. But the vast majority of "Activ" FP1 machines use the TNC 113 DRO. If that ever fails you either fix it yourself (if electronics handy), or buy a working one from Singer or Peter, or, for less money just buy a Heidenhain ND780 DRO brand new and jumper the two Activ connections in the electrical box. You loose the Activ function but that falls into the "meh..." category....better to have a brand new LCD screen DRO, IMHO.
 
Not an auction, Buy it Now....but mostly, it's in Germany and the price is so high the chance that anyone reading this forum might feel annoyed that I "exposed" a machine they might have bought at screaming deal is zero.

Not disputing you, but was just pointing out that you did post an ebay auction, albeit BIN. :)

Is that lever under the handwheel for the Y how the power works for the head/y-axis?
 








 
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