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Alexander Master ToolMaker Purchase

Joined
Jun 14, 2017
Dear all,
I recently purchased an Alexander Master toolmaker. I thought I would share a few photos and the ideas I have to get it up and running. As I understand it, the Alexander is a very close copy of the Deckel FP1 (change gear model) but with a different pressure angle on all gears. Its needs a fair bit of work so I was hoping I may pick up a bit of advice from the forum.
The vertical head has been stripped down, the previous own was going to replace the bearings so I have the new ones ready to go in. The only thing that I can see is missing from this is the aluminium cover that goes around the drive gear. I think this is to direct oil on the gear but I’m not sure.
There is only one change gear so I am in the process of machining a new one. I measured the one I have and I believe it is mod 1.5 so I bought a 27T gear to match. If this works out, I will buy some better quality (ground) gears and make a full set. If anyone has spare gears I am interested. . I have already made and fitted a new key for the vertical feed shaft so now the shear pin is rotating when I engage the feed.
I didn’t have an overarm and arbor support so I purchased a deckle one from Germany. This seams ok but now I am trying to source an arbor for it. I have a large selection of horizontal cutters with 1” bore so I need a Morse taper 4 arbor with 1” shaft and a 17mm diameter end for the journal. I may be asking a bit much here so I already started thinking about making an arbor from EN19 steel.
I received a 2.2Kw star / delta motor with it so I plan to run this from my lathe invertor. I’ll set up some contact breakers to switch the VFD output between Lathe and Milling machine. I think I may be able to switch the motor settings through a digital line, this will save me time.
My backlash values are 0.45mm in X, 0.23mm in Y and 0.1mm in Z. I didn't think these were too bad but let me know what you think. My brother has challenged me to do some climb milling with it!
I paid £312 for the machine, please let me know what you think.
Here are the photos:
20170402_211007.jpg20170501_204924.jpg20170501_204934.jpg20170301_210123.jpg
 
I paid £312 for the machine, please let me know what you think.
Here are the photos:
If you find it fun and like the challenge of the restoration it might be worth it....But if you mostly want a Deckel style mill to use I suspect it would be less expensive in the end, to buy a proper Deckel FP1 that doesn't need restoration and can be used immediately.
 
Alexander

If you find it fun and like the challenge of the restoration it might be worth it....But if you mostly want a Deckel style mill to use I suspect it would be less expensive in the end, to buy a proper Deckel FP1 that doesn't need restoration and can be used immediately.

Thank you Milacron.

I don't expect I will find the restoration 'fun' but I do think it will be immensely satisfying once it is completed. There are only a few Deckel FP1's which come up in the UK and they are very expensive. I wanted to have a good quality machine but I don't have much money to spend so I felt this would allow me to get there albeit with some work required.

From what I have read on www.lathes.co.uk the Alexander is an exact copy of the 'proper' deckel FP1 with the only exception the pressure angle of the gears so I don't have any concerns regarding the machine quality.

I was actually looking for some advice on the technical aspects of the machine or where I can find parts. There was one question which I forgot to ask in my original post. The feed lever is a little stiff to engage and I was hoping that it will engage easier when I have the machine running. I am assuming that you can engage the feed when the machine is running, it doesn't actually say in the manual. Please if anyone can answer this it would be appreciated.
 
As for the change gears, you could use a VFD controlled small motor - then you would need just one set of gears.
And have maybe high/low range when exchanging them (rarely). A friend of mine did that successfully with his 1938 FP1.

One important thing to check, as always, is if the previous owner(s) used grease instead of oil....

Cheers
Erik
 
The Alexander is a great machine and should serve you well when sorted.
I recently made a batch of feed gears for owners in the U.K. If you decide to keep to that method feed, I can do you a set, they are not hardened but my set has been in use for 10 years.
The feed lever engages with the machine running so you should be ok.
If I can help pm me.
Peter
 
Curious, in that last pic you show a bunch of gears mixed in with the tooling.

The head looks torn apart, so have to believe some of that mess came from the head.

Me thinks Milacron was being nice with comments. :rolleyes5:

From what I have seen the FP1s go for less in the U.K. than America. But either way, you have a "project" at best. Good luck on getting the 'ol gal running, and hopefully you're a seasoned machinist in case you need to start fabricating gears and other parts for it. Sounds like PeterC can help with some of them. That's a plus! ;)

I paid £312 for the machine, please let me know what you think.

I'm pretty happy that it's your £312. :)

Congrats on your acquisition! You will feel good pulling that one out of the ashes, once it's done, but it doesn't look like a simple cleanup!

Then you will be on the tool finding road...looks like MK4, which is a bit more difficult to find than SK40.
 
Before going too far, i would have a look into the spindle assembly...
Don't know about the "Alexander", but on a Deckel there are no replaceable parts in the spindle assembly save the needle rollers and ball thrust bearings...
If there is any significant damage to the spindle or quill needle roller races, then the spindle is junk and you will spend the cost of a better machine just replacing that one part....
Remember there are two spindles....check both.
Having the vertical spindle out would make me nervous.....

Of course if the spindle is a plain bearing setup, then that is a horse of another color.

Better to know before investing good time on a bad project...hopefully, everything is good.
Cheers Ross
 
Vfd

Eric,

Thank you for your suggestion.

I like the idea of adding a small motor run from a VFD for the feed gears. Or maybe a stepper since I have a bit of experience building stepper driver boards. I had a look on the web and found a photo of this setup. In this case the motor was installed above the main motor and a hole was cut in the belt guard. This put me off a little since I would like to keep the machine in one piece. I may be able to fit a motor inside the feed box by simply designing a bracket off the coolant pump mount. I would be very interested to see how your friend has done it.

I put some oil into all locations and judging by the amount that went in I am confident that there is no grease in there. I expect I will strip it down and clean everything properly before I use it in anger.

Cheers
Nick
 
Thank you for the offer Peter. Once I have made some progress I might well be in touch. I guess I just need your PM ID to contact you.

If you have any pictures of your Alexander It would be great to see them on the forum.

Cheers
Nick
 
Thank you for your recommendations Ross

I filled with oil and ran the horizontal spindle the other day. I was pleasantly surprised in that it ran smoothly in all gears. I wanted to check that the motor and VFD were ok as well. The horizontal spindle end float is 0.0001" and runs within 0.0003" on the internal MK4 taper. I'm not able to measure any lateral play.

I agree with the comments in that there is quite a bit of work in the vertical head. The main problem with this from what I can see so far is the rust pitting on the quill and the spindle spline that sticks out the top. There is no rusting internally so the bearing journals are good. The pinion which drives the quill has a slightly damaged tooth, I think this is from pulling on it beyond the last rack tooth! Ouch. I checked out the price of a new one from a well known German supplier, even bigger ouch!

The vertical spindle has a plain bearing which looks fine to me. I was able to adjust the end float in the spindle nicely as per the user manual.

Worst come to the worst, I could manufacture a new vertical spindle and quill but I don't have heat treatment or grinding capability so I expect it will be pricey getting this done.

Cheers
Nick
 
Nick,

Honestly, it sounds a lot better than it looks in the pics.

Doesn't sound like too much work, although those splined gears will probably be tricky. You might be able to cut it using the horizontal spindle. Sounds like it runs pretty well.

Are the Deckel heads interchangeable ? Seems you put the Deckel horizontal support, but that doesn't have any gears in it, I don't believe. I know the gears are a problem between FP1 and FP2 on the Deckels, so they don't just swap.

Starting to sound like you may have gotten a screamin' deal on your mill! :scratchchin:

Cheers,
Alan
 
It looks like a major project but given time and effort it should be rewarding. My first suggestion is to wipe off all the parts and then work some oil into the machined surfaces, a little pitting on the OD of the quill won't hurt the way it works but looks bad. I also suggest if you don't yet have one, get an operations manual for as early a Deckel FP1 as you can find. My first mill of the Deckel style was a Japanese copy (Riken) and having a manual that I could read was a big help.
The damaged tooth on the Quill doesn't sound like a work stopper if it is only on the end of the rack. A simple internal spacer although limiting travel slightly might work to keep that area out of the equation. One thing; I don't see the pinion and return spring for operating the quill in the parts box, maybe there but if not you'll want it.
I do have the shield for the gear from an old Deckel, two halves but the cast half has been damaged and will only be of use to reverse engineer to make another one. Also have a Deckel 1" horizontal arbor in good shape but I haven't shipped to England and don't know what that requires?
Dan
 
Dear all,
I recently purchased an Alexander Master toolmaker. I thought I would share a few photos and the ideas I have to get it up and running. As I understand it, the Alexander is a very close copy of the Deckel FP1 (change gear model) but with a different pressure angle on all gears. Its needs a fair bit of work so I was hoping I may pick up a bit of advice from the forum.
The vertical head has been stripped down, the previous own was going to replace the bearings so I have the new ones ready to go in. The only thing that I can see is missing from this is the aluminium cover that goes around the drive gear. I think this is to direct oil on the gear but I’m not sure.
There is only one change gear so I am in the process of machining a new one. I measured the one I have and I believe it is mod 1.5 so I bought a 27T gear to match. If this works out, I will buy some better quality (ground) gears and make a full set. If anyone has spare gears I am interested. . I have already made and fitted a new key for the vertical feed shaft so now the shear pin is rotating when I engage the feed.
I didn’t have an overarm and arbor support so I purchased a deckle one from Germany. This seams ok but now I am trying to source an arbor for it. I have a large selection of horizontal cutters with 1” bore so I need a Morse taper 4 arbor with 1” shaft and a 17mm diameter end for the journal. I may be asking a bit much here so I already started thinking about making an arbor from EN19 steel.
I received a 2.2Kw star / delta motor with it so I plan to run this from my lathe invertor. I’ll set up some contact breakers to switch the VFD output between Lathe and Milling machine. I think I may be able to switch the motor settings through a digital line, this will save me time.
My backlash values are 0.45mm in X, 0.23mm in Y and 0.1mm in Z. I didn't think these were too bad but let me know what you think. My brother has challenged me to do some climb milling with it!
I paid £312 for the machine, please let me know what you think.
Here are the photos:
View attachment 201716View attachment 201717View attachment 201718View attachment 201719

Im sure it will be worth it ,i did a similar project on an alexander ,i power it with a inverter and 2hp motor.Before and after photo.Whats your serial number?
702139.jpg702155.jpg
 
Nice looking rebuild, Bob.

Regarding the OP comment about parts. You mentioned that the gears are different. If the pinions and shafts are the same, then I may have some NOS parts if yours are bad. I've got a hodge-podge of different original Deckel NOS parts for an FP1. They are hard for me to identify though. Deckel changed their part numbering scheme a few times so my numbers don't make that much sense and I don't have the patience/time to correlate that stuff now (well, I've had the parts for a decade or more so it is hard for me to say I've *never* had 'time' over that span... I guess I just forget about them or am a bit lazy).

Alan
 
Before going too far, i would have a look into the spindle assembly...
Don't know about the "Alexander", but on a Deckel there are no replaceable parts in the spindle assembly save the needle rollers and ball thrust bearings...
If there is any significant damage to the spindle or quill needle roller races, then the spindle is junk

I've not had one apart so do not know the finer points behind this. Is it is due to bearings no longer being available? No one's developed a work around - when the Deckel bearing goes, its over?
 
Is it is due to bearings no longer being available?

The issue is that the inner race of the needle bearings is the rotating spindle itself. There is no removable/replaceable bearing race. Similarly, the outer race of the needle bearings is the quill itself. There is no removable/replaceable bearing race there either. The only replaceable "wear" part are the needles, which can indeed be purchased in micron increments and replaced if needed. But if either the inner race or the outer race is damaged, then the only good option is to replace the entire spindle. I think there are some people who have had success with getting the inner and outer races build up through electrochemical deposition ("rechroming") or vacuum deposition ("spraying") followed by grinding, but this does not result in bearing surfaces with the same metallurgy and properties as the original.
 
Guys, since it is a MT4 machine, I would expect that there are no needle bearings, just a huge tapered plain bronze bushing.
This, of course, does not alter the fact that if the spindle bearing surface is damaged then spindle is probably off. However, it might be the case that, even at severe wear cases, spindle is ok and bronze bushing needs work.

Ross has provided some excellent advice on this here: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...nasty-vertical-head-rattle-321366/index3.html

BR,
Thanos
 
Hi Thanos,

Guys, since it is a MT4 machine, I would expect that there are no needle bearings, just a huge tapered plain bronze bushing.

I am pretty sure that many of the MT4 machines had needle and thrust bearings, not bronze bearings. Perhaps the OP here can tell us what kind of bearings his machine has on the horizontal and vertical spindles.
 
Hi Thanos,



I am pretty sure that many of the MT4 machines had needle and thrust bearings, not bronze bearings. Perhaps the OP here can tell us what kind of bearings his machine has on the horizontal and vertical spindles.

Right Bruce, thanks for the tip. Was really under the impression that it is either MT4-bronze or SK40-needles.

BR,
Thanos
 








 
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