Centreing microscopes - ideas and sources?

Mcgyver · Dec 4, 2017

I'd like to find a w12 centreing microscope and also one for a Hauser M1 jig borer, and if possible would rather avoid needing to get a mortgage.

Any used ones kicking about or ideas for sources?

Oh, and on the M1, does anyone know if it must be lapped to the machine or are they interchangeable?

Thanks

DMF_TomB · Dec 4, 2017

Mcgyver said:
I'd like to find a w12 centreing microscope and also one for a Hauser M1 jig borer, and if possible would rather avoid needing to get a mortgage.

Any used ones kicking about or ideas for sources?

Oh, and on the M1, does anyone know if it must be lapped to the machine or are they interchangeable?

Thanks

.
most spindles get dirty and runout can vary. many scopes are assembles and adjustable for runout correction normally.
.
biggest problem i see is every machine spindle has tram error or spindle leaning a bit and many machines are not easily adjusted. this makes a longer tool with its tool tip shifted more in direction spindle leaning.
.
basically i often see a bored hole just done then boring bar replaced with indicator setup of a different length and it will say bore is not centered to spindle. amounts might be <.0005" but often thats more than tolerance
.
other thing is many spindles manually turning give one reading but when spindle turning at high rpm the tool tip can shift a bit from oil movement in the spindle bearings. again it can be <.0005" but often this exceeds tolerance. movement also can come from worn turcite or slides as side pressure is put on them. i often see where slide reversing in direction there is a bit of rocking going on. like a 4 legged chair with one leg short it rocks as it shifts from 1 leg to another but ultimately on 3 support not 4
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thermal or temperature changes of machine and part also can easily cause .0005" changes. i often see spindle growing longer as it warms up often the most growth is the first 5 minutes. it can also effect other axis positions too.
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part distortion from clamping can cause problems. rechucking often at lower torque for finish cuts is common. bores going out of round on unclamping often happens with certain parts
.
just saying scope wont solve all problems

Danny VanVoorn · Dec 4, 2017

I have a Moore Special Tools centering scope that works well for me. It doesn't need a light source and mounts to a flange with four cap screws and has screws to center it similar to a set-tru lathe chuck. It is a rather simple set up and that is one of its best features. To use on my Deckel mill I turned a shank to fit it with a 1.00" straight shank to fit a collet, I only use it in a genuine Deckel collet though.
Dan

Screwmachine · Dec 4, 2017

Hauser M1 spindles/scopes/scribers/center punches are lapped to fit the bore. For some reason it seems the older machines were 'more smaller' than nominal than later; like 24.96mm where a newer machine might be 24.98. But so far they are always smaller than 25mm, I've checked quite a few.

The lapping process takes a long time, last one I did was about a day and a half.

Isoma made a little scope that could take various shanks including w12. Pretty sure they still make it. If you're looking for cheap you'll need to scan ebay and ricardo.ch for isoma. I can't imagine new is less than around 2k.

I might have an appropriate scope for M1 in one of my boxes somewhere. Will look tomorrow.

Mcgyver · Dec 4, 2017

DMF_TomB said:
.
just saying scope wont solve all problems

i don't really have a problem I'm trying to solve. These are small and precise swiss watch and clock sized equipment where these devices are in some cases a necessity.....I mean what good is an M1 without a scope? This is a machine with direct dials graduated in tenths and a good portion of those sold were only sold with scopes (no cutting spindle) for use as an extremely accurate toolmakers microscope.

I would love to hear ideas and sources anyone might have, thanks

Mcgyver · Dec 4, 2017

Screwmachine said:
Hauser M1 spindles/scopes/scribers/center punches are lapped to fit the bore. For some reason it seems the older machines were 'more smaller' than nominal than later; like 24.96mm where a newer machine might be 24.98. But so far they are always smaller than 25mm, I've checked quite a few.

The lapping process takes a long time, last one I did was about a day and a half.

Isoma made a little scope that could take various shanks including w12. Pretty sure they still make it. If you're looking for cheap you'll need to scan ebay and ricardo.ch for isoma. I can't imagine new is less than around 2k.

I might have an appropriate scope for M1 in one of my boxes somewhere. Will look tomorrow.

awesome, thanks. Yes, $2000 is not where I'm at. I've an F1 and S70 where the W12 would be nice to have, but something for the M1 is a must.

I suppose if my bore is smaller I can lap it (the scope that is, still has to fit the spindle) i've a .001mm dial bore gauge so have at least a fighting chance of being able to measure it.

PS, It looks the like Isoma comes in a few models, all the same size, just different eye tube positions/lengths. If that's the case, any reason why I couldn't get an ebay one with say a 40 taper, remove it, and make my own adapter?

DMF_TomB · Dec 4, 2017

usually would use .00005" test indicator and a magnetic chair for picking up edges and bores
.
even a chair has been known to be more than .0002" off

Mcgyver · Dec 4, 2017

I have those tools as well, but I suspect you don't understand how these machines are used or what is being made. Either the chair wouldn't fit, or perhapos you have to optically pick up two scribed lines, as might created by a depthing tool etc. i appreciate the concern, but i'm not on the wrong road looking for love in all the wrong places

AlfaGTA · Dec 4, 2017

Video microscopes are getting pretty cost effective...wondering if you could build your own scope using that technology. Display on your laptop ...Nice big format...no squinting.
Dosen't need to be perfect out of the box, just built with as Danny relates a setup to dial it in so its on center.....

They are inexpensive enough that you could likely make one for each machine so perhaps you could skip the re-calibration when changing form one machine to another.....

Cheers Ross

Screwmachine · Dec 4, 2017

Tom the chair is bigger than most parts that would be worked on on these machines. On the Hauser M1 the entire boring spindle comes out and is exchanged for the microscope, these parts have a body diameter of 25mm. This stuff is lapped in within a few (couple?) microns and is really crazy repeatable and precise. Truly watch territory.

billzweig · Dec 4, 2017

I have one for my Moore jig borer. The Moore tool holder is very accurate, but in any case the microscope is centred optically to have the optical axis coincidental with the axis of spindle rotation and I did it first time when using the microscope. I subsequent mountings it was almost always within a micron or two and during the 17 years that I am using it I just readjusted it once.

AlfaGTA · Dec 4, 2017

billzweig said:
I have one for my Moore jig borer.
I subsequent mountings it was almost always within a micron or two and during the 17 years that I am using it

As i would expect. Here the "magic" word is "Moore"
Cheers Ross

Mcgyver · Dec 4, 2017

AlfaGTA said:
Video microscopes are getting pretty cost effective...wondering if you could build your own scope using that technology. Display on your laptop ...Nice big format...no squinting.
Dosen't need to be perfect out of the box, just built with as Danny relates a setup to dial it in so its on center.....

They are inexpensive enough that you could likely make one for each machine so perhaps you could skip the re-calibration when changing form one machine to another.....

Cheers Ross

Ross, I like the idea, it has potential for the w12 set up. I'd have to find one with a minimal throat depth. One challenge is depth....the Isoma is 40 or 42 mm in length, I think digitals I've seen are double or more and these small machines. I wonder if you can get them with a graticule?

Erik · Dec 6, 2017

Mcgyver said:
looking for love in all the wrong places

Reads like an old PC game - Leisure Suit Larry. LOL

Cheers
Erik

Mcgyver · Dec 6, 2017

so current thinking....find a scope for the M1 and lap to fit. For the W12, I thought of hacking an old microscope and making one. even a cheapo is pretty good at 40x...thinking 4x objective and 10x eyepiece. I'd either buy a graticule or make one (strands of dental floss). I had the idea that if you made the graticule slight eccentric in a slightly eccentric seat, you could rotate it into perfect centre position then lock it in place.

The M1 is in pieces pending paint. I look at it and wish all machines were made as well. Its a beautiful little machine. It is very interesting how things like the thread error correction was done. It has the full rotary table and an 8mm spindle, every bearing surface shows all the original scraping so I think its good one. Only problem is the paint was literally falling off, and no scope.

As part of this acquisition I got an Aciera F1 and Schaublin 70 (second one lol). Christmas came early!! I've stripped and cleaned the F1. I'm going to replace the needle bearing, the races look good but I'm not sure on the bearing As nice as this mill is, I really don't like this design of spindle bearings using the the shaft and housing as races. What do I know on mill design vs Aciera and Deckel etc, but come on, bearings don't last forever and you'd hope your precious machine tools would not have to be tossed after a worn out spindle bearing

Screwmachine · Dec 7, 2017

Haven't tracked down a spare M1 scope in my stuff yet, but Neils Machines (comes right up on google) seems to have several with different configurations and body diameters for fair prices.

Word of advice- if you do some lapping, don't be tempted to speed things up by cooling the warmed (from lapping) scope body in the fridge. You can end up with it stuck more or less permanently in the head. Take your time.

AlfaGTA · Dec 7, 2017

Reading these posts leaves me a bit confused.
So i get that the scope fits in place of the spindle.....ie remove spindle insert scope into spindle housing bore. I also understand that a scope will need fitting to the individual machine's housing bore.

Seems that the housing is already lapped to the spindle....So how does further lapping to get the scope to fit not enlarge the housing some and thereby make
the fit on the original spindle loose?

Cheers Ross

rimcanyon · Dec 7, 2017

If you are looking for a microscope to adapt, many microscopes have considerable parallax. Best to look for one that is a collimating microscope. I used to have one made by Hilger and Watts that was used to check length standards.

Mcgyver · Dec 7, 2017

Screwmachine said:
Haven't tracked down a spare M1 scope in my stuff yet,

Thanks for trying, if you do come up with one, please let me know.

Mcgyver · Dec 7, 2017

rimcanyon said:
If you are looking for a microscope to adapt, many microscopes have considerable parallax. Best to look for one that is a collimating microscope. I used to have one made by Hilger and Watts that was used to check length standards.

can you explain more about that? I thought all single objective monocular scopes would be collimating, or least attempt to be. My thought was if there was a way to adjust the the cross hairs, once set to a mark made with a tool, they would forever be set and where you saw the cross hairs on the eye piece would be the axis of the spindle

Centreing microscopes - ideas and sources?

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