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Deckel 2038 universal table found at scrapmetal dealer

noltelouis

Plastic
Joined
Feb 3, 2016
Hi guys.

I need someone to share my enthusiasm with! This past weekend, a friend sent me a picture of a universal table that he saw lying at a scrap metal dealer. I immediately realised that it was a universal table, but didn't know what make. I told him to see what make it was, and was very happy when he sent me a photo of the name plate with "Deckel" on it! To make a very long story of how they struggled to load it etc short, and what is equivalent to 100 Euro later, it is now lying at my house where it will be refurbished (even though it will probably just be stripping and cleaning it)and then fitted to my FP3! I must also say, that this is one of the very few milling machine tables I have ever seen, with absolutely no machining or drilling marks on it!

Its a real pity that something like this will end up as scrap! But luckily this time around, it will be saved from destruction!

Cheers!
 

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You lucky guy !!!!! :cheers:

If your FP3 is a manual machine or an FP3A, you even won't have to fuss around with the rear mounting plate as yours appears to have the 90mm slots spacing that suits non-NC Deckels.
 
You lucky guy !!!!! :cheers:

If your FP3 is a manual machine or an FP3A, you even won't have to fuss around with the rear mounting plate as yours appears to have the 90mm slots spacing that suits non-NC Deckels.


Yes, it will be a straight fit, as I have a FP3A. Quite excited I must add!!
 
Has anyone here ever rebuilt one of these? Or where can I find some exploded view drawings or parts catalogue for these tables? I would like to know what I'm getting myself into, as these parts are so heavy, I'm sure they're not easy to just man handle and take apart!
 
There's no parts diagram nor exploded view that I know of for the 2038 tables.

Working on it should be pretty straightforward for the mecahnical side of things.

Yours seems to be the digiteal-readout with built in rotary encoder version, judging by the broken handwheel hub in lieu of a dividing plate.
 
Has anyone here ever rebuilt one of these? Or where can I find some exploded view drawings or parts catalogue for these tables? I would like to know what I'm getting myself into, as these parts are so heavy, I'm sure they're not easy to just man handle and take apart!

I've had the table off of one, I recommend being ready to handle it real carefully before you take the table off, because there a huge glass encoder exposed right on top after you take the table off. I'd clean the rest of it up and do all the repairing it might need, then make a wooden pallet/cradle to hold it upright or perhaps bolt it to a machine to do the rest,

DSC05195.jpg

AlfaGTA posted a nice dissertation of repairing one but the photos are lost now.
 
Some additional information:
First off there is some information regarding adjustment for the worm and wheel backlash that can be found in the FP-NC operators manuals....
Major disassembly would be to remove the table top..
There are 6 Allen bolts that are accessible in the bottom of the "T" slots that hold the table top to the rotary mechanism...Be sure to remove the nuts form the
clamp bolts (4) that are under the flange of the base.
The gearbox and be serviced through the front cover, and i believe the worm can be removed through the front.....Would caution against any major part removal from the top of the base as that will require disassembly of the encoder if the table is so fitted!

As to the rotary...Your photos show what looks like the remnants of a cable cut off on the bottom of the table base. As "T" says,likely this table has a Heidenhain encoder

Having this work would be huge ...makes the rotary usable and highly accurate....however there are some things to know......
If your table was made originally for an FP3A then i believe the encoder will have 7200 lines per rotation. If your table was originally made for an FP32 or FP3...then likely the encoder will have 9000 lines per rev.

Thing here is that your FP3A can use and display the lower count encoder but not the higher value....Won't count correctly!
And if you wish to use a stand alone HH box to display the table rotation then the 7200 line encoder will not work...unless you invest in the latest "Positip" DRO box....
Further understand that not all Heidenhain DRO'd are capable of displaying rotary movements, so if desiring to run the table by a stand alone box you must be careful as to which version you choose...


Word of caution...the encoder and the read heads are very close fitting and run open under a tin cover under the table top....Do not remove the read head or the glass scale...carefully clean them in place....
If you disturb the mountings there is the real possibility that the encoder can be damaged or the reading will be insufficient
to give a reading that will work......

There seem to be two versions of the encoders that i have sen. some use two reading heads and some a single head....

Nice find by the way..hope you bought a lottery ticket the same afternoon....
Cheers Ross

On edit: Not absolutely sure, but believe your table having the serial number beginning with "500" indicated this would be a table originally fit to an FP3A...so likely will have the 7200 line encoder....
 
Further understand that not all Heidenhain DRO'd are capable of displaying rotary movements, so if desiring to run the table by a stand alone box you must be careful as to which version you choose...

Thanks for all the good info so far.

I have a Heidenhein ND 780. Think its only got 3 inputs, so not sure if I will temporary have to disable an axis if I want to read rotation? Any comments.

I also can't see any photos in the thread "universal table woes". Not sure if its a browser setting.
 
The photos in my posts have disappeared. Had them posted on photobucket and they changed their posting policy ...demanding $400 to activate for one year...

Here are a couple of snaps of what the inside of the table looks like with the table removed. Also there is a sheet metal top that covers the encoder that just lifts off.

First photo is that of the "NC" table i have on my fp4nc. Two reader heads 180* apart, reading on the same glass scale. Dip switches allow selecting one or both of the encoders (turns the lamps on of off )

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Second photo is like i had on a late FP2 manual machine and also as the table that came from an FP3A that i got from Peter.
The FP3A table has the 7200 line count encoder and i thank that becomes an issue for the "normal" HH dro box.

attachment.php


Believe the Positip 880 has the ability to select the encoder line count when set to read a rotary readout on one of its 6 axis...
Do not believe your current ND780 will work here.

Note the different setup on the read heads....and the setup on the glass scale.
Also note, not much access to the inner parts of the table if the encoder is in place...

Cheers Ross

On edit, just visited the HH site and looked over the documentation on the ND 780.....does not look like that box can read any rotary encoder read out for rotation......Sorry!
 
Thanks for all the good info so far.

I have a Heidenhein ND 780. Think its only got 3 inputs, so not sure if I will temporary have to disable an axis if I want to read rotation? Any comments.

I also can't see any photos in the thread "universal table woes". Not sure if its a browser setting.
The ND780 will read rotary encoders angles just fine (no theory, I've done it...you can set line count on the 780 as well) but unfortunarely is available in 3 axis only, the only way to read all 4 axis on one screen with Heidenhain scales is the Positip DRO, which is considerably more expensive...but every blue moon they show up used on eBay, like the one I have on my FP2.

IMG_0003.jpg

Ironically, Acu-RIte makes a DRO that uses exactly the same case and monitor as the ND780 that will read 4 axis on one screen, but you have to have all Acu-Rite scales to utilize it.
 
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FWIW, I see the table is missing the rotary retram dial indicator and cover for same...no surprise there considering how something that fragile and exposed is unlikely to survive scrap yard treatment ....suspect the front tilt one was destroyed as well but maybe the side to side one survived as it is more protected. Alternative indicators exist and Singer sells the clear plastic covers.

If your encoder outputs no signal it could just need a new light....some of the encoders come with a spare light fitted inside ready to replace the original.
 
FWIW, I see the table is missing the rotary retram dial indicator and cover for same...no surprise there considering how something that fragile and exposed is unlikely to survive scrap yard treatment ....suspect the front tilt one was destroyed as well but maybe the side to side one survived as it is more protected. Alternative indicators exist and Singer sells the clear plastic covers.

Yip, the dial indicators are all missing. Someone must have thought they look cool and nicked them off before disposing the table! I'm can't quite figure out how the dial gauges work, as the measure axially to the axis that they measure? So how do they measure any displacement if the just measure the sliding surface, or am I missing something? I have a manual for the table, but its in German.

Is there any recommendation to get the rotary scale working? I'm thinking of getting a single axis DRO for it, but not sure what will be compatible with the encoder and not cost a fortune?

Also the 2 read head setup is to increase the accuracy. It is there to eliminate the effect of run-out on the glass disc. So it uses an average reading between the two heads. That's why they are 180deg apart.

Ross, I still can't see the photos you put up? Where should I look, as I don't see them in your post.

Thanks for the replies!
 
Yip, the dial indicators are all missing. Someone must have thought they look cool and nicked them off before disposing the table! I'm can't quite figure out how the dial gauges work, as the measure axially to the axis that they measure? So how do they measure any displacement if the just measure the sliding surface, or am I missing something?
They don't really "measure" per se but provide a repeatable reference point to quickly retram the 3 axis back to zero. They work via tapers milled (or ground ?) in the rotating or tilting way surfaces near the zero point.

As an aside, since the Positip 880 is 6 axis capable, I once intended to add an encoder to read the front to back tilt as well. The encoder shaft would have mounted on the bolt that the table pivots on. The encoder would have been unobtrusive and would have worked perfectly via my prelimany tests, but to my surprise I didnt like that way the Positip screen looked in 5 axis mode, and eventually decided the whole scheme was overkill and sold the used encoder I had bought for the purpose on eBay at a slight profit.

Adding an encoder to read the side to side tilt would be much more difficult.
 
Milacron is correct on the indicators....
The detail of the scheme is that there are pockets milled into the surface of the 3 moving elements on the table assembly...
The indicators are fitted so that their plungers run perpendicular to those pockets.

Pressed into the pockets are hardened steel cams which are a sort of inverted "hill" The location of the cams correlates with the "0" point for each of the three moving axis.

You tram the axis in the usual manner. I use the "T" slots for the table rotation zero....Once the axis is set you adjust the indicator for that axis to the reference marks by loosening the set screw in the casting and moving the indicator in or out ..(mid travel on the indicator) The Deckel indicators have a sweep hand and a revolution counting hand (small) and the mid range is color coded (yellow) if i recall correctly.

What is happening is that the indicator plunger enters the cam and begins to fall into the curve. Somewhere within that travel the axis will come into tram and you set the indicator at that point.....

In effect you are freezing a point in the indicators rise and fall that equates to the tram position....
Works pretty well.

On my tables i rarely ever move the table out of parallel with the "X" axis...Tramming that swivel is difficult and i avoid it...Because the table droops when you loosen the clamp bolts
and moves back when tightened , getting a precise move takes some diddling...

Rotation works perfectly and the indicator almost always gets me within a few tenths of run out in the full travel on my FP4NC "X" axis.....(22")
The tilt (front to back, out of tram to the "Y" i use constantly. The adjustment screw works well and i can get smooth and predictable movements....The Zero indicator here takes a bit of education to
use with accuracy as the side plate of the casting where the indicator is mounted will shift in position when the clamping bolts are secured.....For anything that matters, I always tram this plane
when returning to zero.....Indicator gets you close....i don't trust it as the last word.

Additional things to know.....There should be a "T" bolt that runs through the center of that "swivel" move. That bolt has a special nut with splines on its OD and a special long handle
that extends down so you can tighten and loosen the nut (the splines on the OD match splines inside the wrench end so you can move the lever and then jump it to take another bite......

At present i seem unable to access the photo hosting portion of this site...will post some photos when the site allows...
Cheers Ross
 








 
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