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deckel fp 2 vertikal head problems

volvo 140140

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 8, 2018
Hi. I know that much has been written about this, but I can not find exactly what I'm looking for.
I have a problem with my vertical spindle that's the way i have switched all needle bearing and thrust bearing I bought stock of a bering dealer. I measured both inside and out the measurements. according to him, one would do it to determine the size of needle berings this would then be right. The name of Needel Berings I bought is called K 50x57x18 Ina and K45x52x18.
uses grease NBU15

The problem is that the spindle gets hot. It became hot even with those old berings. That's why I switched Berings thought these were the problem.

How hot should Spindle and Vertical head be?

Anyone who has any ideas?20180222_205539.jpg
 

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You have bought standard needle bearings
The ones you need are special selected ones and come in a couple of different sizes with very small intervals
I would advise to send the quill to Singer Germany and let him deal with it
If you want to do it yourself you have to buy a complete set of needle bearings
AlfaGta can tell you more about it

Peter
 
hello I'll put it back together with them old Needel Berings and those new thrust bearings and with kluber grease.


How much radial play do I need to have?
please write in mm.
I'll try this and see if it helps.
best regads
 
Alfagta in an old post said:
The following information was supplied to me through a factaory service tech that installed my FP4NC in 1993. The machine came used from Germany through the US distributer. When the machine was powered up it had a noisy spindle, so we overhauled it and cleaned and re-packed the bearings. Now remember this is for a spindle in a CNC machine that has a top spindle speed of 3150 RPM, so the specs might be somewhat diffeent for the ealier manual machines......But on my FP2 the spindle fell into this range.

The prociedure is as follows. Get everything spotless...Wash bearings and housing ane dry with lint free cloth...no dust dirt or even fingerprints!
Assemble the bearings (use gloves and keep everything clean) to include the thrust bearings.
Place an indicator (accurate) with the plunger touching the spindle nose close to the Quill, and at right angles to the spindle axis.
By hand push the spindle from side to side.
The movement should be a total of 10 microns. (10 micro millimeters)
Allowable tollerence= 10-15 microns. (.010-.015M/M) (.00039-.00059") DRY

The thrust adjustment is made on final assembley,and is done with grease .
End play measured at the nose of the spindle should be : .005 M/M (.0002") with heavy hand pressure.
Part of the secret is the grease, only Kluber Isoflex Super Tel.
Also it is imperative that you not use very much grease when repacking the bearings. A slight smeaar on each roller and a dab between on the cage is plenty. Over greasing will cause the bearings to run hot and overheat.

I think what Ross wrote is all what you need to know.
 
I have one correction that i have made on bearing inspection....
Taken as caution given by Rich Klopp i now assemble the cleaned bearings to the clean housing with some very light oil like Starrett instrument oil.
Reason being that there is a concern of microscopic metal transfer that could happen when fitting close tolerance very clean parts together....
Of course after testing the fit as explained in the post above the needles need to be cleaned again prior to final assembly.

No such intermediate step is needed for setting the thrust. Those are greased and assembled then set to the clearance as called above...
Further as to grease, good performance has been attained with Kluber NBU15. Little heaver than the Supertel and may be better in worn spindle assemblies.

Cheers Ross
 
The main contributor to excess heating is excess grease. Tight fit is somewhat secondary, unless the fit it ridiculously tight, which it should not be for needle roller bearings to live. You might be surprised at how little grease is required. Search Ross’ old posts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You can find a detailed step-by-step from Ross here:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ills/fp2-spindle-assembly-lots-photos-206981/

(The photos are missing, but I think that this was reposted with the photos. Perhaps someone else here can provide a link to that.)

Unless you have Ross' level of skills and experience, I advocate the approach above. Send your spindle to Franz Singer Singer Werkzeugmaschinen GmbH and let him sort it out. The price should be reasonable and the spindle will work properly for the next 50 years if you don't abuse it.
 
At this point and given that the spindle has already been taken apart and the needle replaced, I'd say that giving it a last try with the original needle cages and the proper amount of fresh Klüber grease won't hurt.
 
hello guys I have now made one last try with the original needle cages and the right amount of fresh Klüber grease and the new thrust bearings.

It became a lot less heat now.

I have run it for about 30 minutes at 2000 rpm and when I measure with an ir thermometer on the spindel I get a temprature of 41.6 celsius and in Fahrenheit it becomes 106.88 F.
Is this good or bad?

between which tempratur area is okay?

I do not have Ross's level of skills and experience, unfortunately, I do not have those emergency measurements either. is just a happy home machinist.

what do you think it would cost if Franz Singer would redo the spindel?


do not know if it matters but my machine is from the late 50's

I thank so much for all the good answers. Cheers :)
 
Last edited:
I have run it for about 30 minutes at 2000 rpm and when I measure with an ir thermometer on the spindel I get a temprature of 41.6 celsius and in Fahrenheit it becomes 106.88 F.

Seems perfectly normal to me.

Check the radial play, but if it's correct, what else could you ask for ? :cheers:
 
Seems perfectly normal to me.

Check the radial play, but if it's correct, what else could you ask for ? :cheers:


a question about how do I do to check the radial play and the play up and down on the vertical spindle.and whats is acceptable.
Even how much run out on the spindel is
acceptable? How should you measure this? Can you measure this when the spindle is in the vertical on the mill.
Should you measure directly on the spindle or should there be any tool in the spindle? hope you understand what I mean.
I wonder how much play and run out is acceptable for general milling Please write in mm.

Cheers
 
You can measure the radial clearance or play (side to side on the spindle) with the spindle in the machine.

You can also measure the end play with the spindle mounted, but if it needs adjustment it must be removed to make that happen....

To measure the radial play/clearance you need a good indicator that can accurately test for .0001" of better (mm simply multiply by 25.4)
Also need a good stout and rigid way to hold the indicator...my choice are the "Noga" mag bases.

Use the "Vee" side of the mag base to grip directly on the OD of the quill (extend the quill from vertical head if mounted in the machine)
Put the base close to the end of the quill
Set the finger of your indicator up against the outside of the spindle where it exits the quill....If you have a tool holder lightly mount the holder...
The holder will provide an extension that will allow a way to push and pull against the spindle....If no holder then a collet with a short length of round stock mounted to make a handle.

Because most milling is generally done using the "X" axis i would "clock" the position of the indicator base and finger so that it is aligned with the "X" axis.
Zero the indicator on the spindle nose and then apply firm hand pressure parallel with the indicator. Push then pull and note the total indicator movement...
Total move should be somewhere around:.0003"-.0006" ...These values are for a "dry" spindle. One that is greased i would expect to have somewhat less.

Point here is that you have ot have some clearance...and you don't want it loose.

The end clearance is checked the same way except that the indicator is set to red the end of the spindle and you must push on the end and then pull back (can also push on the end of the draw bar instead of pulling)
Here the clearance movement should be around .00019" (.0002")

This value is set able using the adjusting nut at the spindle (must remove from the machine to have access)
Its important to only mount your indicator directly to the quill....this will eliminate any flex in the surrounding mechanical structure....
Cheers Ross
 








 
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