Lars Anthony
Plastic
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2015
Hey I need to get the collect holder out so I can get new tolling in. Do I just hit it at the top or what do I do. Haven't used a deckel before.
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Deckel fp1 taking sk40 holder out
- Thread starter Lars Anthony
- Start date
- Replies 36
- Views 8,554
Hey I need to get the collect holder out so I can get new tolling in. Do I just hit it at the top or what do I do. Haven't used a deckel before.
ballen
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
Dear Lars,
please don't hit! That will damage the spindle bearings and they are not replaceable. Please post a photo of what is stuck in the spindle.
If it is a collet holder for 20mm U2/355E collets then please see this thread.
If you PM me your address in Denmark, I'll send you the puller shown in the thread above, provided that you return it to me when you are finished.
Cheers,
Bruce
please don't hit! That will damage the spindle bearings and they are not replaceable. Please post a photo of what is stuck in the spindle.
If it is a collet holder for 20mm U2/355E collets then please see this thread.
If you PM me your address in Denmark, I'll send you the puller shown in the thread above, provided that you return it to me when you are finished.
Cheers,
Bruce
Lars Anthony
Plastic
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2015
It's the 20 mm collect holder that's stuck so I'll send you a pm.
ome.machining
Aluminum
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2015
- Location
- Denmark, Europe.
What do you do when you have, lets say a boringhead or similar in the spindle?
Why are this head so fragile?
Have any of you actually damaged a head by tapping with a hammer, or is it simply because it's a 'deckel'?
On all other mills I work on, tapping on drawbar is the key to push out the taper?
Why are this head so fragile?
Have any of you actually damaged a head by tapping with a hammer, or is it simply because it's a 'deckel'?
On all other mills I work on, tapping on drawbar is the key to push out the taper?
ballen
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
The drawbar will EJECT most tooling. But not the adaptor for the 20mm collets.
Because the design uses the spindle itself as the inner bearing race, and the quill itself as the outer bearing race. So if you mess it up, you need to replace the entire spindle. Which is extremely expensive.
I have never hit the drawbar with a hammer. But you are welcome to do this on your own machinery, if you think it's a good idea.
I'll let others comment, if they wish.
Cheers,
Bruce
ome.machining
Aluminum
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2015
- Location
- Denmark, Europe.
Ok, I understand. Never seen a deckel apart.
Yes I can imagine it will eject. But the drawbar needs to be fixed so it wont just unscrew upwards?
I've used many mills, where this isn't an option.
Even when I were at school, when educating to machinist, the process were to give the drawbar a tap from a hammer.
From your reply, you seems to be kinda upset, that I even asked this question?
Yes I can imagine it will eject. But the drawbar needs to be fixed so it wont just unscrew upwards?
I've used many mills, where this isn't an option.
Even when I were at school, when educating to machinist, the process were to give the drawbar a tap from a hammer.
From your reply, you seems to be kinda upset, that I even asked this question?
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
Breaking the taper loose using a hammer or mallet is SOP for many mills....Not so on the Deckel as pointed out they are fitted with a
self ejecting drawbar......Just a matter of knowing the machine and how its built....
The fact that you asked i take as a good thing.....
Cheers Ross
self ejecting drawbar......Just a matter of knowing the machine and how its built....
The fact that you asked i take as a good thing.....
Cheers Ross
ballen
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
Only frustrated that I can't answer your questions better. But it should make sense that hammers and precision bearings do not make good company!
ome.machining
Aluminum
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2015
- Location
- Denmark, Europe.
I ask because I've always seen the hammer tap method, all places I've been.
Been working with machinist who has been in this trade in +40years, they also did this.
And the machines even older, and they are still working good.
I just wondered if this really were such a death punch to do. Or if it only were a deckel fan, being scared of little tap.
Not to hurt any ones feelings. But sometimes I get the idea from here, that the deckels are collectors items, and not really a machine build to do actual work?
I don't know how many of you been in a 'real' shop, where machines are heavily used. I'm sure most would be shocked how machines are treaded sometimes [emoji16]
They are to many, a tool, build to make money. Not to last a lifetime, standing in a hobby shop, shining like a new.
Back to the tap issue.
I have to figure out a way to non-tap my facemills out of my prvomajska, Bridgeport and pedersen mills then.
They aren't build for a fixed drawbar. [emoji848]
My tos fn40 have both horizontal and vertical build with fixed drawbars.
Those CZ people know how to make good machines [emoji123]
Been working with machinist who has been in this trade in +40years, they also did this.
And the machines even older, and they are still working good.
I just wondered if this really were such a death punch to do. Or if it only were a deckel fan, being scared of little tap.
Not to hurt any ones feelings. But sometimes I get the idea from here, that the deckels are collectors items, and not really a machine build to do actual work?
I don't know how many of you been in a 'real' shop, where machines are heavily used. I'm sure most would be shocked how machines are treaded sometimes [emoji16]
They are to many, a tool, build to make money. Not to last a lifetime, standing in a hobby shop, shining like a new.
Back to the tap issue.
I have to figure out a way to non-tap my facemills out of my prvomajska, Bridgeport and pedersen mills then.
They aren't build for a fixed drawbar. [emoji848]
My tos fn40 have both horizontal and vertical build with fixed drawbars.
Those CZ people know how to make good machines [emoji123]
ome.machining
Aluminum
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2015
- Location
- Denmark, Europe.
Btw, what mean sop? [emoji16][emoji848]
sneebot
Stainless
- Joined
- May 14, 2001
- Location
- Massachusetts
standard operating procedure
AlfaGTA
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2002
- Location
- Benicia California USA
My Deckels work every day, make me a nice proffit.
There is a huge difference between using a machine to its capacity and abusing it....
Most "capitol" machines are designed and built to give productive service for 30 or more years......
Lots of users here on this forum...difference is that most have made the personal investment in their machines and as such are likely to be more connected and
concerned at how to properly use and maintain them . Different mind set over a "wage slave" who is thrashing about on the "Man"s" machine...having no real investment besides a pay check...
Cheers Ross
triumph406
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
- Location
- ca
I have a 50+ year old HLV, 2* 30 year old BP's, 25 year old Makino CNC, 26 year old Fadal, 40(or so)year old Graziano SAG14 that get used every day. Used hard, but not abused. There's no reason these tools shouldn't outlast me, and provide another lifetimes worth of service to somebody else with reasonable care. The difference being I own these tools and look after them. (as a profit making enterprise and not a hobby shop)
ballen
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
For the record, here's what the Bridgeport manual says:
"Drawbar has 7/16-20 right hand thread, and should be tightened by hand with normal amount of pressure using wrench furnished with machine. To loosen collet, back off drawbar and if collet does not open immediately, give knob on top of drawbar a slight tap."
I think the implication is that the "slight tap" should be with the "wrench furnished with the machine". You are not supposed to beat on the drawbar with a hammer.
"Drawbar has 7/16-20 right hand thread, and should be tightened by hand with normal amount of pressure using wrench furnished with machine. To loosen collet, back off drawbar and if collet does not open immediately, give knob on top of drawbar a slight tap."
I think the implication is that the "slight tap" should be with the "wrench furnished with the machine". You are not supposed to beat on the drawbar with a hammer.
ome.machining
Aluminum
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2015
- Location
- Denmark, Europe.
Of course. That's my point.
Even though they weren't build to last for ever, they almost do.. and this even they sometimes are used hard.
I see some of our machines are mis treated by some students/apprentises, and they still can't kill them. They are stronger than most people think.
Yes I know, the right fool can destroy everything.
And to ballen
Of corrse I was referring to a very light tap. Not full strength hit.
Normally a taper (iso~R8) sits very loose, and only need very little effort. That's why I in the first place couldn't see why this could damage anything....
ballen
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
Lars, your head has a stuck 355E collet holder in it. These collet holders (and the spindles that they went in) were made in two versions. One version was Morse Taper 4 and one version was SK40. Which is yours? If unsure, please post a photo showing the tool end of the vertical head. Cheers, Bruce
He doesn't need to post a photo as it's obviously not an SK40...note the split casting that clamps the quill...only the MT 4 Head was done that way.
ballen
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2011
- Location
- Garbsen, Germany
Hi Don,
I thought Lars wrote to me that his collet holder was the same as shown in this post. Which is SK40. But I guess he has never seen his adaptor (since it's stuck in the spindle). So it makes sense that it might be an MT4 one. If the spindle is MT4, does it mean that it's a solid (bronze) bearing rather than needle bearings?
Lars, the extractor that I sent you should work OK also on the MT4, but you'll need to check that the support tube is a good fit on the bottom of the spindle. It's sized for the SK40 spindle, but hopefully will still fit yours.
The MT4 can really be stuck in there, so if you tighten the puller as much as you dare and it still does not come out, then you need to put a block of wood underneath the support tube of the puller, and run the table up against the wooden block to put as much upwards pressure on it as you can. Then use a lead or copper hammer and strike the top of the drawbar downwards. That blow plus the tension from the puller should pop out the collet holder. The upwards pressure from the wood block on the support tube will help protect the bearings from the force of the hammer strike.
Cheers,
Bruce
I thought Lars wrote to me that his collet holder was the same as shown in this post. Which is SK40. But I guess he has never seen his adaptor (since it's stuck in the spindle). So it makes sense that it might be an MT4 one. If the spindle is MT4, does it mean that it's a solid (bronze) bearing rather than needle bearings?
Lars, the extractor that I sent you should work OK also on the MT4, but you'll need to check that the support tube is a good fit on the bottom of the spindle. It's sized for the SK40 spindle, but hopefully will still fit yours.
The MT4 can really be stuck in there, so if you tighten the puller as much as you dare and it still does not come out, then you need to put a block of wood underneath the support tube of the puller, and run the table up against the wooden block to put as much upwards pressure on it as you can. Then use a lead or copper hammer and strike the top of the drawbar downwards. That blow plus the tension from the puller should pop out the collet holder. The upwards pressure from the wood block on the support tube will help protect the bearings from the force of the hammer strike.
Cheers,
Bruce
Lars Anthony
Plastic
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2015
Okay. Maybe it's not a sk40 and it's a mt4. I just got told it was a sk40 from where I bought it... But maybe they got it wrong. I will let you know when I get it out.
