Deckel FP1 Vertical Spindle - Keyway problem

lfdiniz86 · Mar 17, 2016

Hey guys i just finished assembling my Deckel, did some milling and everything seems fine. The only problem is the noise coming from the spindle when u make a cut. The problem is the keyway, its widened. What should i do? Any thoughts?
Btw, i wanna thank AlfaGT and Peter for the help.

Here are the photos:

Lumberjack · Mar 17, 2016

Would it be possible to put in a new keyway 90 or 180 degrees away? Is there material enough so it´s not significatnly weakend? Or render other complications?

Maybe take a look in the "Bubba"-thread under general also to see if this has been adressed before :-)

Juliano B. · Mar 17, 2016

The shaft is heat treated,hardened, very difficult.
Could use a key measure larger and adjust the keyway for her.

cwilcox · Mar 17, 2016

I'm not intimately familiar so this might be off base, but could you grind the worn key square and machine a custom stepped key to remove the backlash.

Spyderedge · Mar 17, 2016

Maybe wrap some brass shim stock around the key? Maybe a turn and a half around the key.

I like to always put a shade of oil on the spline, really keeps rattle down on my M-head

lfdiniz86 · Mar 20, 2016

I was thinking about the shim on the key, and avoid using the quill. I dont know how easy it is to machine another keyway.
This is how i got my deckel, it was from a big aluminium company. It was covered with 3 layers of paint, oil and aluminium chips.

Danny VanVoorn · Mar 20, 2016

I'm not sure on this but I think the key is not separate from the gear? If that is the case it would be difficult to widen it for the worn slot and the easiest way to fix it would be to cut a new key way in the shaft. I wonder how much wear is on the key if the shaft shows that much wear; there is a lot more shaft to wear than the key so it may be pretty thin?
It would be a good idea to separate the spindle from the housing and check that key in the gear before making a plan to fix it. I have not in my experience, ever seen a key way with wear in it as shown.
Dan

lfdiniz86 · Mar 24, 2016

Dan the key is separate from the gear, as seen on the photo, but it looks "homemade". Im thinking the best way to solve this problem is to open another key channel. I am also getting 0,023 mm radial play in my spindle, i guess someone replaced it with a standard niddle roller beaering... Those are the problems so far.

Danny VanVoorn · Mar 24, 2016

lfdiniz86 said:
Dan the key is separate from the gear, as seen on the photo, but it looks "homemade". Im thinking the best way to solve this problem is to open another key channel. I am also getting 0,023 mm radial play in my spindle, i guess someone replaced it with a standard niddle roller beaering... Those are the problems so far.

Yes, I see the separate key; I'm always learning something, that's one of the things I like about this forum.
To tell the truth I do not think that the worn slot in itself will cause a lot of noise unless the spindle isn't turning smoothly.
Dan

AlfaGTA · Mar 24, 2016

Would do as Danny suggests, take things apart to evaluate the problem and assign a solution....
I would,knowing the little i can see, tend to repair the existing key slot. This is a good job for a high speed air spindle or jig grinding head...but barring that think you might get acceptable
results using a good ball bearing spindle die grinder or Dremmel lashed up to allow a small stone to enter the slot.
This job requires disassembly of the spindle to remove it from the quill and make it rigid to allow work on it....

The nice thing about doing it this way is that you can setup the part on the mill and use the die grinder or Dremmel as the spindle. Will require some build up to
fabricate some way to hold the grinder, but not a big issue i think.....

The wear in the keyway seems to be on one side...so this fix will require grinding both sides to balance the slot and keep it centered to the shaft's center of rotation....

Don't favor cutting another key slot as that will be difficult on the heat treated part for starters, and i would be nervous about making the shaft crooked by the stress of an additional cut!
Might not present any problems, but i would not take that chance.

Once the slot is re-profiled you can easily make a stepped key to account for the change is the slot dimensions.....

Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA · Mar 24, 2016

.023mm of radial play in the spindle is not a problem IMO....That is within spec for a needle roller spindle.
Of course might really have more as we don't knoe what is being used for grease ...might be using something really heavy and that will affect your readings.

Great looking job on the repaint by the way. Machine looks great....you should be proud of that!
Cheers Ross

thanvg · Jun 10, 2016

@ lfdiniz86: Hi there, any update on the keyway problem? Did you solve it somehow? And, most importantly, did the fix cure the head's noise?
Was it something like this? vertical head rattle - YouTube

(from my post here: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ls/alg-100-nasty-vertical-head-rattle-321366/)

BR,
Thanos

luc · Oct 6, 2016

I had the same problem,so i milled the existing keyway slot to 6,3 mm
Them i've made a new key 6,28 mm
The shaft is not that hard,i milled it with a 6 mm carbide end mill

lfdiniz86 · Dec 10, 2017

Hey guys, got some news on the Deckel. I solved the keyway problem milling i wider keyslot and everything seems better. I was milling some round stock with a 80mm shell mill (a litle too big) and a new noise started, looks like a backlash in the gears. Heres the video:

Danny VanVoorn · Dec 10, 2017

It only sounds like the cutter teeth are hammering, hard to follow the rule of thumb (two teeth in the cut) with a cutter that size. Hard to explain; One thing I do when using large cutters is off set the work so each tooth is making a longer cut, it usually runs a lot smoother until it gets to the end of the work piece. I may be wrong on this but think for the FP1, Deckel recommends a 2" diameter cutter maximum in their tooling books.
I sometimes get that hammering sound on the FP2 also but that machine has a backlash eliminating feature built in, if tightened it puts friction on the final gear. I really don't like to use it because I think it will put undue load on the gear train.
One final comment in regard to the worn key way; It seems there were a few of these brought up recently and I have been thinking about it. My manual, even for the later model twin dial shifting FP1 shows lubricating that key way with some oil. It seems counter productive for spindles with roller bearings but makes sense that the key way and the gear train get some lubrication. I have been doing this on all my Deckel mills, not only the plain bearing spindles but the permanently lubed ones and even the FP2.
Dan
Dan

AlexO · Dec 10, 2017

Check axial play.

lfdiniz86 · Dec 13, 2017

Alex last time i checked it was 0,023mm radial. I am going to check axial play and i'll get back to you,

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