Deckel FP3A Horizontal spindle damage

noltelouis · Feb 13, 2017

Good day all.

I bought a Deckel FP3A about a year ago. I have never used the horizontal spindle of the machine, until last week. There was a lot of tool chatter on this spindle, and when I investigated a bit further, I saw that it had about 0.15mm (yes that's right, 0.15mm) radial play.

I build up the courage, and stripped the quill out of the machine and opened the spindle. It was worse than I thought. It had been contaminated by what I can only think is coolant. There was so much corrosion that the needle roller bearing close to the spindle end had stopped rotating completely.

I have now done a lot of research on the rebuilding of these spindles, and I know that it is a very precise and specialist task. I'm also not sure if they can be rebuild from this condition, as I don't know to what extent there will be "oversized" needle rollers available for such a rebuild, as I can imaging a lot of material will have to be removed to clean up the spindle and housing?

Then, also the question of an "economically viable" repair come to mind.

I know there is a lot of people stating how full of problems these specific FP3A were, so maybe someone has one standing around as a "statue" (as so many has called it once the electronics stops working), that they would be willing to part out?

Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated!

Regards to all the Deckel fans out there!

TNB · Feb 13, 2017

noltelouis said:
I know there is a lot of people stating how full of problems these specific FP3A were, so maybe someone has one standing around as a "statue" (as so many has called it once the electronics stops working), that they would be willing to part out?

Given the similarities between the FP3A and the "plain" FP2/3 aktiv, parts like good condition spindles are probably pretty much sought after.
Those machines held their value pretty consistently so far.
I suppose (only my guess though) that the spindles assemblies are the same.

Be aware that the spindle quills were matched to the ram or vertical head castings too so if you ever find one, a careful measurement of the quill diameter would probably be a good idea so you don't spend your money in a perfect spindle that won't fit your machine.

Milacron · Feb 13, 2017

I have no helpful comments on the spindle other than what TNB already stated...except you can send it to Franz Singer for evaluation and they can probably rebuilt it....but I know that is a cringer as it will cost a bit to send it there... and once they have it you will feel obligated to pay whatever they tell you it will cost...but they will be fair about it I think.

I am mainly responding as you appear to be the first Deckilite I am aware of to convert an otherwise worthless 1981 FP3A from "point to point' control to a fully manual machine ! So now I am curious..

1. How do you change the gears for spindle speeds ?

2. Do you still have power drawbars ?

AlfaGTA · Feb 13, 2017

Pretty sure that Peter on this board scrapped an FP3A about a year back...perhaps he has the horizontal spindle saved...
As to the fit of the quill to the machine, "T" is correct in that they are fit individually. However, a quill larger than the original could be relatively easily fit by
rigid honing (Sunnen cylinder bore hone) , and could be done in place with little disassembly. If the replacement was undersize...a reputable hard chrome shop with proper grinding capability
could chrome and grind the quill to fit your machine....

By the look of the parts i would say that a rebuild was a very remote possibility...the range of available roller sizes is very narrow...any pitting and i think you are out of luck on that score.

Cheers Ross

Milacron · Feb 13, 2017

FWIW, I have a mid 1980's FP2NC horizontal spindle....they might be the same, dunno......

noltelouis · Feb 14, 2017

Milacron said:
1. How do you change the gears for spindle speeds ?

2. Do you still have power drawbars ?

Hi Milacron.

The mod was done by someone electronically smarter than me, but everything functions on the machine. Spindle speeds has a selection of a HIGH and LOW switch, with 3 speed selections on both (thus giving 6 speeds). It was also fitted with a VFD on the motor, so within the 6 speeds I can infinitely adjust the speeds to fine tune between the lowest and highest speed of 60 - 2500 rpm. It also has a RPM display, so you can see exactly where you are. The gears change in the same manner as the original machine, it toggles the motor to give a slight spin to get the gears to mesh. Its all done by a set of relays that works in a certain sequence of switching once it get the confirmation from the micro switches on the rotating barrels. There is obviously some logic to the switching sequence, which I am not sure of.

The power feeds are also done with push buttons for all the 6 directions, with a button to "lock" the selected direction, as well as a "rapid" push button to rapid in the selected direction. This also has a pot to fine tune the feed speed. The feed speed I read of the Heidenhain DRO.

Power Drawbars and autolube system all still fuction as well.

So all in all, it is a great machine. The construction is so good and solid, that I can't understand how these machines are rendered useless just by electronic issues?

I'll also be interested to see some pics of that spindle you have! :scratchchin:

Milacron · Feb 14, 2017

noltelouis said:
Hi Milacron.

The mod was done by someone electronically smarter than me, but everything functions on the machine. Spindle speeds has a selection of a HIGH and LOW switch, with 3 speed selections on both (thus giving 6 speeds). It was also fitted with a VFD on the motor, so within the 6 speeds I can infinitely adjust the speeds to fine tune between the lowest and highest speed of 60 - 2500 rpm. It also has a RPM display, so you can see exactly where you are. The gears change in the same manner as the original machine, it toggles the motor to give a slight spin to get the gears to mesh. Its all done by a set of relays that works in a certain sequence of switching once it get the confirmation from the micro switches on the rotating barrels. There is obviously some logic to the switching sequence, which I am not sure of.

The power feeds are also done with push buttons for all the 6 directions, with a button to "lock" the selected direction, as well as a "rapid" push button to rapid in the selected direction. This also has a pot to fine tune the feed speed. The feed speed I read of the Heidenhain DRO.

Power Drawbars and autolube system all still fuction as well.

So all in all, it is a great machine. The construction is so good and solid, that I can't understand how these machines are rendered useless just by electronic issues?

I'll also be interested to see some pics of that spindle you have!

The 1981 vintage FP3A is rendered useless by electronic issues because your machine is the first FP3A on the planet Earth I am aware of that has been changed to a fully manual machine. It takes a fair amount of knowledge and time to do what was done to your machine. The only other "salvations" of that model I am aware of were CNC conversions, such as one done in Germany to demo the capabilities of retrofitting with all new Fagor equipment.

As to seeing my horizontal spindle, it is still in the machine but most likely it is in excellent condition...as the machine was bought as a parts machine years ago (was running great when previous owner moved it but in the move it fell over on it's backside smashing the Y axis motor end) I have never run it but I have run the vertical head via another "prime mover" and it runs quiet and smooth...suppose I could do the same with the horizontal if inspired enough.

noltelouis · Feb 14, 2017

Milacron said:
your machine is the first FP3A on the planet Earth I am aware of that has been changed to a fully manual machine.

I think I must maybe post a video on youtube to demonstrate how the machine operates, and maybe it inspires more to salvage these machines to a very capable and useful machine. Maybe I must do that only after I have tracked down an affordable spindle, otherwise my chances might get slimmer!

And Milacron, when you get a chance, I'll be glad to get some more info on that spindle that you might have available.

AlfaGTA · Feb 14, 2017

Can you post a large format photo of the control? What i can see in post #1 the job looks pretty well done.
Thanks for the explanation of how yours works....
As to the conversion, was this done by someone you know or was the work already done when you bought the machine? If its the latter case, do you know who did the work?

Cheers Ross

Milacron · Feb 14, 2017

FWIW, below is link to video of the only other known useful remake of a 1981 FP3A. This was done mostly to show the capabilities of Fagor retrofits but the machine was for sale a couple of years ago. You can't see it in this video but one objection some folks had was they mounted the X axis servo on the right side rather than the usual left side position. Regardless, it was a pretty nice seeming retrofit of an otherwise IMHO worthless machine.

Deckel FP 3 CNC mit Fagor Steuerung Messe SPS IPC Drives 213 - YouTube

(on edit) actually there is a brief glimpse of the X servo near the end of the video (starting at 1:01)

Peter from Holland · Feb 14, 2017

What would be considered a fair price for such a spindle

Peter

Milacron · Feb 14, 2017

noltelouis said:
And Milacron, when you get a chance, I'll be glad to get some more info on that spindle that you might have available.

Since it, and it's hydraulic drawbar are still in the machine there isn't much to tell other than the quill diameter..which is nominally 80mm....can get a more precise measurement on it if you get serious. Price would be similar to the eBay vertical spindle, 1000 USD for the spindle and 500 for the drawbar assembly.

You would need to know which pull stud you use in your vertical spindle as Deckel made the gripping fingers for two different styles. Mine appears to be the more common type grip they used, where the stud is straight and the same diameter as the end neck of conventional no. 40 tooling* except with a groove in it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*In fact you can use conventional no. 40 tooling in most NC Deckels by turning an appropriate location/size groove in the neck

Milacron · Feb 14, 2017

AlfaGTA said:
Can you post a large format photo of the control? What i can see in post #1 the job looks pretty well done.
Thanks for the explanation of how yours works....
As to the conversion, was this done by someone you know or was the work already done when you bought the machine? If its the latter case, do you know who did the work?

Cheers Ross

It is interesting, isn't it ? Looks like the retrofitter made a new panel to receive a Heidenhain ND780 DRO in the top portion and then made another new panel and all new push buttons for the lower portion (I suppose he could have re used some of the original Deckel push button assemblies) Then in lower left corner is the digital speed display. One mystery is I can't see any labels for any of those push buttons.

noltelouis · Feb 15, 2017

Hi guys.

I thought I'll post a quick video on youtube to show how the machine operates. Please excuse the tatty looking button panel, but I am in the process of drawing one up to have photo-anodize printed.

Also, thanks for the responses so far, still holding thumbs on tracking down an affordable spindle!

Also, I bought the machine like that, so I will try and track down the owner to find out who did the retro fit job. I'll see what info I can get.

trim 5AACE347 B7�3 4121 99AB 4DE�7EDEC549 - YouTube

Milacron · Feb 15, 2017

noltelouis said:
Hi guys.

I thought I'll post a quick video on youtube to show how the machine operates. Please excuse the tatty looking button panel, but I am in the process of drawing one up to have photo-anodize printed.

Also, thanks for the responses so far, still holding thumbs on tracking down an affordable spindle!

Also, I bought the machine like that, so I will try and track down the owner to find out who did the retro fit job. I'll see what info I can get.

Ah, no wonder I couldn't see the button labels...other then some Sharpie marks, there are no labels yet. Very interesting.....whoever did that retrofit is to be congratulated....among other complexities he may have had to covert TTL signal axis scales to 11uA or 1Vp signals for the ND780 DRO, not to mention the different connectors.

But that's the easy part...figuring out the spindle gear change conversion would have been tricky indeed. Nice that he took advantage of the soft start feature of the VFD as well. :cheers:

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