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Thread: Deckel GK12/21 for die sinking?
03-04-2003, 08:28 PM #1
Very neat little pictures of a Deckel brochure at this auction page, shows the machine being used for milling/diesinking. I have heard of people using them to cut graphite electrodes for their sinker EDM machines, but graphite machines very easily, it looks like they're cutting at least Aluminum in those pictures. Anyone here had experience running/using a GK-21 or 12 or that know this machine's limitations? Obviously it would be bad to hog it into some Titanium stock, but apparently these machines are a lot more useful than I had thought.
03-05-2003, 12:30 AM #2
GK12 1/4" collet capacity
GK21 3/8" collet capacity
latter will take a heavy cut in H13 providing the bearings are original Mueller Magnetos and not $10.00 local bearings.
03-05-2003, 02:05 AM #3
Thanks for the info, Arno! Hey is there any other advice you can give on these machines? I am weighing out the GK-21 over the KF12(2/1/, etc) and the heaviest use this thing would see is maybe 9x3x1" (rectangle) medium carbon steel workpiece, max cut depth maybe .75-1", do you think the 21 can take that kind of abuse maybe once a week or so? Or should I go with a heavier machine (KF)? The advantages the GK has over the KF is that it will be easier to move into my place ( ), and I hear it is a more accurate machine for smaller things. I'm almost completely new to these pantograph machines, so bear with me. I appreciate your informed comments very, very much.
[This message has been edited by GeneralG (edited 03-05-2003).]
03-05-2003, 12:00 PM #4
The main difference is that the KF is basically a Die Sinker and Duplicator, while the GK is an Engraver and Duplicator.
The KF is a 1:1 machine that is capable to enlarge or reduce up to 4:1 or 1:4 in 2D,with the Enlarging and Reducing attachment. To do 3D, the Joint Spindle must be present too.
The GK grew out of the Engraving machine and CANNOT do 1:1. The smallest ratio is 1.5:1 and the largest 10:1, either way.
If you want to use the GK for 3D work you must make sure it comes with the (standard equipment.) Straight Edge. This is a cast straightedge; about 3 feet long, and has an 8" tapered shaft sticking out from the side.
This MUST be used to align the cutter and tracer in the vertical plane.
03-05-2003, 12:34 PM #5
Thanks! It looks like I'll have to go with a KF after al then, Arno.
Been calling up a few machinery dealers today, looking at all older model GK-21's, here's some dealer prices on some of these machines, bear in mind none of these had all the tooling they are supposed to have, besides being in shabby condition (pictures):
Yeah, I think I'll have to wait around for something on eBay or a live auction
03-05-2003, 03:24 PM #6
KF1's sell for about half price of an old style GK.
03-05-2003, 10:17 PM #7
One last thing, Arno. Are you absolutely sure the the GK21's cannot duplicate on a 1:1 ratio? I've seen on a lot of the descriptions of these machines "Minimum pantograph ratio 1:1.5" are you sure that's not just the minimum INCREMENT it can reduce/enlarge to? Seems kind of stupid they would have reduce/enlarge ratios but no 1:1? But maybe this is just me being dumb
Once again thank you so much for your help!
03-05-2003, 11:18 PM #8
Yup, absolutely, positively sure.
There are no increments. The ratio can be set anywhere between 1.5 and 10 : 1 up or down.
The G1L, a 2D machine ONLY can go from 1:1 to 1:10 reducing ONLY, no enlarging. It is designed as a letter engraver (Type templates).
03-08-2003, 01:17 PM #9
03-15-2003, 03:11 PM #10
Arno (or anyone else) one last thing for future reference about the GK-21, I think I will be getting a ram/sinker EDM machine in the very near future, my question is, does the GK21 do "hill and valley" type 3D copying? I keep seeing on these ads for GK21's "Fine Vertical spindle feed 5/64" Coarse Vertical feed 1/4" Does this mean it can only copy on planes of 5/64" vertical variation? This would be for cutting EDM electrodes, not steel, and I need something that's going to be able to copy hill/valley type 3D contours with accuracy. I've talked with a few salesmen, but they hardly know what the machine even does. Thanks for the help, bro!
03-15-2003, 04:22 PM #11D. Thomas Guest
Re GK-21 prices, I never ceased to be amazed at the fantasy land some dealers must live in. I would think the only customer for these in 2003 would be home shop machinists. Would anyone involved in a manufacturing situation ~ever~ buy one of these today ? If so, why ?
03-15-2003, 08:25 PM #12
I can't believe it either, Thomas, $16500 will buy you a NICE older CNC a million times more capable than a GK21, and what really annoys me is how they try to drum up superficial market value by saying "These machines replace at $60,000!" :rollseyes: At the rate this GK21 search is going, I might as well just save up and go CNC completely, these prices are way beyond the point where it's insulting my intelligence
03-15-2003, 08:27 PM #13
I sure that you are correct. We knifemakers use them for 2D inlay work. In addition, my GK12 is used for profiling titanium liners for knives.Also for profiling handle material - wood,ivories, pearl and sometimes some of our fancy laminated (damascus) steel. Hardly production work. Mine came directly from a die casting shop via ebay for 1K. The dealers do seem to live in fantasy land.
Both the GK 12 and the 21 do hills and valley work. You will need good single point tooling of various configurations to get the most out of the machine. I have all the handbooks a copy of which might help you to see what they are capable of.
03-15-2003, 08:41 PM #14
Ow2, thanks for the info! I only know of a few places that still use the GK series (mostly smaller EDM shops) and none around here (Pittsburgh, PA) that use them that I might be able to tool around with to get the feel. I swear, getting info on these machines is like pulling teeth. I would gladly pay you a reasonable price (as in NOT $150 like some places want ) for copies of the manuals, just email how much $ and where to send it, thanks!
03-15-2003, 10:45 PM #15
1.) The 'infeed' rates are given for 2D work - letter engraving.
The coarse feed is not a feed but the flick up and down of the lever, that retracts the cutter (spindle) from one sunk letter template and brings it down again in the adjacent one.
The fine feed is the actual infeed of the cutter (spindle) whereby the above lever is rotated around the axis of the spindle giving the fine infeed.
2.) All GK's can do 3D work. See previous post where I pointed out that the straight edge is a MUST to line up cutter and tracer for 3D work.
There is a possibility to work on shallow 3D jobs while the machine is locked in 2D mode.
For that the "Former Guide" is utilized (Standard Equipment).
The Cap is unscrewed on top of the lever housing, exposing a hardened, radiused pin. The former guide is positioned over the pin and will take over the action of the now immobilized infeed lever.
The guide is used most of the time for crowned surfaces. The angle of change may not exceed 30* from the horizontal, as the pin will become self locking at steeper angles and it will be virtually impossible to push the pantograph in the x-y plane.
Accuracy, remember you can make your pattern 10 times the size you need, giving you only 10 % of the error with which the template was made.
03-15-2003, 11:28 PM #16
Ahhh, and some further light is shed on these mysterious German engineering enigmas Thanks Arno (again ) guys like you and ow2 are what makes this board so great, people who will go out of their way to explain complex inner workings of this and that ancient machine tool, who could ask for more?
03-16-2003, 01:05 PM #17
I recently bought a KF 12 on EBAY. By the end of next week I should have the 220V single phase motor to get it running. I am also curious about the capabilities of the machine. Mine has a 3/4" collet and a 2 HP motor. I got a bracket with it to lock the spindle in one position. Once I get it running I will let you know what it is capable of cutting.
03-16-2003, 01:45 PM #18D. Thomas Guest
General, if the GK series is still of interest, I have an original GK12/GK21 operations manual (48 pages) and GK21 parts manual (12 pages). No year mentioned but looks like 1960's from the acessory cabinet photo and other hints.
I also have original sales brochures on the GK and KF series. Pretty elaborate glossy brochures, the KF brochure is over 40 pages long and covers the KF1, KF2 and KF2S (with servo control). Dated 1968. The GK brochure is thinner, maybe 20 pages and seems a little older...maybe late 1950's or early 60's.
I would consider making copies of the GK manual/parts list, as the pages can be seperated and fed automatically, but would not consider making copies of the brochures as the pages are bound and therefore a PITA to copy, but can look up specific info if you want.
I hadn't paid much attention to the KF machines before just now looking thru the literature....dang, now you got me wanting one too !
03-16-2003, 11:07 PM #19
General G., ancient machine tool? Last new one I sold was in 1989 for CAD 34,000.00 !
jwaggs, as I mentioned before, when you start up the machine, DO NOT run the elevating motor until you checked for proper direction of the spindle. When facing the machine, it should turn to the left. Then, when flicking the elevating switch to UP it should come up.
If wired the wrong way around, the down travel limit switch will NOT work and you will jam the nut onto the base. New screw and nut cost more than a complete used KF-12.
What's your Serial Number?
[This message has been edited by Arno (edited 03-16-2003).]
03-17-2003, 12:37 AM #20
Thanks again for the advice. I don't intend to replace the motor on the lift right away. It is serial # 2956 and I found a label on the electrical cabinet that was dated 1968. Do you know of anyone in the market for a 440V 2 speed, 3 phase motor for a deckel KF 12? It appears to be in excellent shape. The entire machine looks like it has had very little use. I decided to go with a new 220V single phase motor because the existing motor appears to use starting relays rather than condensers and I was afraid that if I went with a rewire on the existing motor (besides costing more than the new motor) I would then encounter problems with the voltages on the starting relays and the transformer in the electrical cabinet (although the transformer is labeled 220/440). I still haven't run across an electrical diagram for the machine and the electrical cabinet is formidable.