Deckel, Schaublin 13, Aciera in Central Oregon?

Anyone know of a smaller European mill located in Central Oregon? Would like to take a look at one to see how I would like the controls compared to the standard Bridgeport layout (Running a Rockwell vertical mill for hobby purposes at present).

Thanks,
Bob

I am a long way from Central Oregon (although I have spent a good amount of time over there and up in Walla Walla (in college not the state penitentiary If you want to visit in Norway just let me know.

The controls on the Schaublin 13 are a bit strange but other than the feed speed setting knob which is on the back of the machine and down low I find the machine easy to work with. The rapid peddle is great by the way. It is a machine you need to be able to nearly walk around to use comfortably so for the capacity it takes quite a bit of floor space. In terms of quality feel etc there is no contest, the Schaublin 13 is a lovely machine and was probably an order of magnitude more expensive when produced. You definently will want a good DRO on there, I installed a Newall which is nice and other than the Z axis easy to install cleanly. If you would like any photos etc let me know but really if the capacity is sufficient just get a Schaublin or similar and you will enjoy it.

Luke

Here is my 2 cents worth:
First off all the machines you mention are fine machines.....
Personally think the Swiss offerings tend to carry more curb appeal for some and IMO much of that is based on their being relatively scarce when
compared to their German counterparts...

Consider this....The Deckel mills enjoyed a relatively long and successful life span...Selling more units than the Swiss, and as such had deeper pockets and the
ability to better improve and extend their models over time....
Higher production numbers also means that there is a higher density of machines (Deckel's) available on the market.
Higher production also means that today there is a much wider (less scarce) pool of accessories that finds its way to the used market....
Fact is that the Deckel mills have the greatest range of accessories available...making them potentially the most versatile of the lot.

For my money, best value in the "Euro" mill world would be a Deckel FP2......
Power feeds with rapids in all three axis....
Robust generally trouble free gear drive feeds and speeds.
#40 spindles both horizontal and Vertical.
Sensitive quills both horizontal and vertical.
Will accept all the larger machine powered accessories like the precision boring head (no riser required)
Rigid, angle, or universal tables available....
Factory dividing and spiral attachments available, High speed, angle ,corner milling and slotting heads as well
Relatively small footprint with good travels....
Of course, the later version's incorporate more user friendly features like one shot lube, position-able vertical head to extend the "Y" range, factory fitted Heidenhain DRO's..etc.

Not to mention a wide user base who share invaluable info and insights about these machines...(this board)

OK, sorry got on my soap box here and really did not respond to the OP...so.........

Now all that said..to your specific query, I,m not in Oregon...but rather the SF Bay Area.....You are welcome to come by and ":drive" either an FP2 , or FP3 , cut metal and see how these might fit
your work style.....Also several CNC versions (FP2NC, FP4NC) if you would rather sample the ultimate tool room mill in action...

I wish you good fortune in your search...
Cheers Ross

Deckel or others can certainly be great machines and no one has ever accused Schaublin being a good value power feed on the y axis would be great, although nothing comes without compromise.

Ross has far more experience than I but perhaps you could say the Swiss machines are a little more refined than the German but functionally the individual condition is going to make the difference. If you wanted a real value a TOS or similar mill in the same style would be great although in the states your options are limited to what you can find. Maybe there are some nice machines in the area that found there way out of the national labs/Hanford etc.
Luke

If you have any interest in automotive history at all the drive to Ross' shop is worth every minute from anywhere in Oregon... his shop is better than any car museum I have ever been to.

...and if you go as far as Ross' place, you might as well cross the Golden Gate and ogle an Aciera F4 and F5 next to each other. That coincidence is pure luck - I did not set out to own Acieras, but one and then the other came up for sale at OK prices, and I wanted 40-taper spindles, so I jumped.

"For my money, best value in the "Euro" mill world would be a Deckel FP2......
Power feeds with rapids in all three axis....
Robust generally trouble free gear drive feeds and speeds.
#40 spindles both horizontal and Vertical.
Sensitive quills both horizontal and vertical.
Will accept all the larger machine powered accessories like the precision boring head (no riser required)
Rigid, angle, or universal tables available....
Factory dividing and spiral attachments available, High speed, angle ,corner milling and slotting heads as well
Relatively small footprint with good travels....
Of course, the later version's incorporate more user friendly features like one shot lube, position-able vertical head to extend the "Y" range, factory fitted Heidenhain DRO's..etc."

Plus infinitely variable dc motor-driven feeds. That's a nice touch.

jim rozen said:

Plus infinitely variable dc motor-driven feeds. That's a nice touch.

Click to expand...

Yabbut, the Acieras have had infinitely variable feeds since the 1950s without relying on electronics. They use a Reeves drive variant. The Aciera feed system also has a clever "works-in-a-drawer" design that makes servicing the feed transmission very easy.

rklopp said:

Yabbut, the Acieras have had infinitely variable feeds since the 1950s without relying on electronics. They use a Reeves drive variant. The Aciera feed system also has a clever "works-in-a-drawer" design that makes servicing the feed transmission very easy.

View attachment 199592

Click to expand...

Rich,

I like how they used that idler pulley on the Reeves. Rivett didn't do that on my lathe, but that would have been a nice touch to help it run a bit smoother.

Cheers,
Alan

Think idlers only work well if the direction is always the same (idler needs to be on the unloaded ,non pulling side)....Lathe spindle needs reverse, hence no idler....
Cheers Ross

Unlike a normal Reeves in which one sheave is spring-loaded or the whole motor is spring-loaded on its base, the Aciera feed drive moves both sheaves in direct relation. When one is moved inward, the other moves outward by the same amount. The idler maintains the belt tension, and it is a weight, instead of spring-loaded. Hence, and Aciera F4 or F5 would function poorly in zero-gravity outer space ;-) .

Thanks Guys,appreciate all the inputs. I figured Central Oregon might be a long shot but have often been surprised by what I find in Bend OR.
I think I'm going to have to own a euro mill at some point. Before retirement I spent a bunch of time in Germany and Switzerland working with Aircraft OEMs. Their tool rooms always made me drool.

Right now I'm fairly size constrained (hence the Rockwell) but have plans to add some floor space to expand the home shop in the very near future. Still, I'm not likely to have enough space to set a machine in the center of the room so maybe the Schaublin is out (gorgeous machine though). There is a Maho MH-700 for sale in the Portland Area, but from what I can tell from the internet,the MH-700 appears to be considerably larger and heavier than most of the compact Euro Mills.

I will definitely look into visiting Ross next time I'm in the bay area. I have a little bit of a car problem myself (Lotus Esprit, Vespa 400) so would love to see the shop. And Norway, it's a little far from Central Oregon, but definitely worth the trip from everything I have heard. I can dream...

AlfaGTA said:

Think idlers only work well if the direction is always the same (idler needs to be on the unloaded ,non pulling side)....Lathe spindle needs reverse, hence no idler....
Cheers Ross

Click to expand...

Duh...of course you're right. But then how often are you actually wrong Ross ?

rklopp said:

Unlike a normal Reeves in which one sheave is spring-loaded or the whole motor is spring-loaded on its base, the Aciera feed drive moves both sheaves in direct relation. When one is moved inward, the other moves outward by the same amount. The idler maintains the belt tension, and it is a weight, instead of spring-loaded. Hence, and Aciera F4 or F5 would function poorly in zero-gravity outer space ;-) .

Click to expand...

Indeed mine does have the spring loaded sheave.

Lowpass said:

I figured Central Oregon might be a long shot but have often been surprised by what I find in Bend OR.

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There is some Deckels up in Oregon (mTeryk is one that comes to mind, send him a PM), just no response from the owners.

I'd be weary of the mh-700. I've seen it and know who previously owned it. Didn't look like a bad machine, but the current owner has a bad rep. So if you decide to purchase it make sure you get all the stuff you were promised or you'll never get it. They are a little bigger but there is some advantages and disadvantages. My mh-800 isn't that big (or so it seems to me) it does weigh a lot compared to deckels, and it's supposed to be a almost jig bore with the accuracy promised. It's very hard to find parts and accessories for them. So I'd recommend a deckel unless the maho is VERY well tooled. They tend to be cheaper too. Whatever you choose the later the better typically. Oh and 40 taper is highly recommended as you can actually get tooling easily.

rklopp said:

Yabbut, the Acieras have had infinitely variable feeds since the 1950s without relying on electronics. They use a Reeves drive variant. The Aciera feed system also has a clever "works-in-a-drawer" design that makes servicing the feed transmission very easy.

Click to expand...

Interesting...I didn't remember my (now your) F4 having that. Still, turning a tiny nearly frictionless dial for axis feed would be way nicer than cranking a hand wheel for feed speed. Plus the late Deckels can be used on the space station assuming "payload" within tolerance of the delivering rocket

(might be some issues with way oil flow however ! )

Thanks Again!

Chknives said:

I'd be weary of the mh-700. I've seen it and know who previously owned it. Didn't look like a bad machine, but the current owner has a bad rep. So if you decide to purchase it make sure you get all the stuff you were promised or you'll never get it. They are a little bigger but there is some advantages and disadvantages. My mh-800 isn't that big (or so it seems to me) it does weigh a lot compared to deckels, and it's supposed to be a almost jig bore with the accuracy promised. It's very hard to find parts and accessories for them. So I'd recommend a deckel unless the maho is VERY well tooled. They tend to be cheaper too. Whatever you choose the later the better typically. Oh and 40 taper is highly recommended as you can actually get tooling easily.

Click to expand...

Thank you for that. I looked at a previous thread and see what you mean about that particular dealer. I will steer clear.

The Aciera's look like very interesting machines, but quite rare! Not much available right now. I see an old style FP1 (horizontal only) in Tucson and an Abene in Wichita but little else. No worries though, I can wait for the right machine to come along.

I really appreciate all the info and guidance.

Best Regards,
Bob

I've got an FP1 and an FP2nc in Eugene if you're interested. Doesn't sound like you're​ looking at NCs, though, and the FP1 isn't under power currently. Should be moving into a new shop in a couple months where it'll be back in service.

Teryk

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Much appreciated

mTeryk said:

I've got an FP1 and an FP2nc in Eugene if you're interested. Doesn't sound like you're​ looking at NCs, though, and the FP1 isn't under power currently. Should be moving into a new shop in a couple months where it'll be back in service.

Teryk

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

You're correct, my interest is strictly manual at least at the present time. Please let me know when you get the FP1 up and running. I would love to take a look at it - at your convenience of course.

Thanks,
Bob

Milacron said:

Plus the late Deckels can be used on the space station assuming "payload" within tolerance of the delivering rocket

Click to expand...

As an aside, isn't it an amazing thought that a Deckel FP2 or Aciera F5 could be "floating" in zero G.... no need for jacks or skates, just gently* push it to where you need it and lock 'er down ! LOL... metal chips flying everywhere could be problematic of course....

*keeping in mind the object in motion tends to stay in motion laws of course

Milacron said:

Interesting...I didn't remember my (now your) F4 having that. Still, turning a tiny nearly frictionless dial for axis feed would be way nicer than cranking a hand wheel for feed speed.

Click to expand...

Reeves drive? Most of those have about ten percent efficiency. Probably the spindle would just about stop if you cranked up the
feed.

Heck the dc feed motor on an FP2 is bigger than the spindle motor on some machines. This can actually be a problem when
instructing novices on using that thing. There's a *reason* they have the two-button lockout on the drive motor!