Deckel Tables, planer? scraped?

The original tables on the Deckels look to be done on a planer, they have those rows on the table flats that appear to be done on a planer. I have several old machines that have this style table on them...Yates American did the table saws like that, as did Crescent on the old jointer I have.

Were the tables scraped in after the planing was done?

Do people scrape the tables?

I ask because my FP1 fixed table which I use appears to be ground, and I was thinking about scraping it.

I know many people have restored these beasts, so the question is how to improve a ground table? Seems accurate, I don't have any complaints, was just wondering if I could improve what I have by scraping it? I need to get some accurate measurements on mine before I do anything to it, I haven't done that yet...

I wrote a long thing, then deleted it. I read two distinct questions: 1) Were the table top surfaces finished before or after the table way fit was scraped in? 2) Is it standard practice to scrape finish a table top?

Short answers for both.
1) No doubt varied by manufacturer, but I suspect the usual answer for a premium maker was "light finishing pass only, after way fitting, on a fixture".
2) No. It would be almost as futile as mirror polishing the inside of a dumpster. Fairly common practice to manually knock down table top burrs with a medium abrasive stone. Lots of variation during reconditioning, but a ground finish would usually be functional overkill. (Grinder might still be the most convenient tool available to refinish the top, though.)

IF you grind and scrape the table will be too flat... Hard to move things around on it because of stick slip.

I only know this because someone here explained why the table of my Rockford Planer had the ridge marks from the original planning on it. PM is a great resource

The slight ridges elevate the part slightly off the table making it easier to position and move items on and off. Of course on my planer the items could of weighed two or three tons so it was a bigger problem....

Here is some information about this topic: an earlier PM thread about how Deckel tables are planed.

My belief is that the tables were all planned on the work surface...most likely done on a fixture that emulated the normal vertical mounting surface of the vertical slide...
Making the finished table surface to a true right angle to the mounting surface....
Fixture could also have been setup to induce a slight angle between the mount and the work surface.....Specs could easily have called for slight tip up of the table to account for wear and
the natural droop when the table is loaded with part and fixtures....

At any rate the tables were most likely finished then sent along to be mated to a machine.
The finished alignment of a machine would have included making the vertical slide flat to the vertical travel.....

If any correction was needed to get the table "flat" within spec. the solution would be to scrape the table mounting surface ...Of course the angle adjustable family of tables would need no such final fitting.

Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA said:

If any correction was needed to get the table "flat" within spec. the solution would be to scrape the table mounting surface ...Of course the angle adjustable family of tables would need no such final fitting.

Click to expand...

Let's say this was the case. Would it be advisable to find a planer that could re-scrape the top as close to 90 degrees to the mount before one tuned it in by scraping the mounting surface?

I don't think my machine is too far out, and in fact it seemed pretty good when I checked it. Just trying to get a game plan on how I would want to spruce up my FP1 up. This FP1 is worth sprucing up, it's a very well built machine, IMO, and I have a fair amount of tooling for it that makes it very useful.

Their tables were left planed as swatkins said. Easier to move stuff about,just as flat(provided an accurate planer was used),and better about not getting fine chips and grit caught under projects or vises. And,in the case of your old woodworking machines,there were no grinders large enough,or too expensive to have. Plus,grinding technology and grinding wheels have come a long way. I have seen real old surface grinders where there is a flat table and you manually shove work under the overhead grinding wheel. No moving table at all. VERY dangerous. Something warps upwards,as thinner parts can easily do,and you could get the work thrown at you,or the unguarded wheel could explode in your face.

Saw and jointer tables were Blanchard ground in more recent times.That is a very cheap way of surfacing.That is why you see those circular patterns.My 1964 table saw is Blanchard ground.And not the most accurate surface you ever saw,either.Usually a few thou low in the center of the table. Anvil faces can be re ground on a Blanchard grinder,if there is a machine near you.

Today,it is standard practice to use wide wheels-wheels wide enough to span the distance between miter gauge slots,or as wide as the jointer table is. The new finishes on Asian made machines are flawless. They are ground this way,and their factories are usuallly equipped with the latest machinery. How they get their well known defects is related to the lack of manual skill on the part of some of their employees,very low pay,poor quality control,etc.. But their saw and jointer tables are beautiful.

There is no real reason to scrape something when it can be machined to an adequate flatness. Ways are scraped to give good bearing between sliding surfaces, and then only one side is scraped on most new machines. The table top is a static surface, so a planed finish should be fine. Most CNC machines have milled tables and they work fine.

ewlsey said:

There is no real reason to scrape something when it can be machined to an adequate flatness. Ways are scraped to give good bearing between sliding surfaces, and then only one side is scraped on most new machines. The table top is a static surface, so a planed finish should be fine. Most CNC machines have milled tables and they work fine.

Click to expand...

Wes,

This is true, but I've seen machine rebuilders scrape the tables, on this Bridgy as an example:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...reconditioned-bridgeport-single-phase-324899/

However, I knew that the Deckel table is scraped on a planer, as I have other machines with scraped tables on them, an old table saw and a couple old jointers, all with the same type scraped lines, so I figured it was done on a planer. However, I don't think a BP has the same table, so that could be why John does that to the BPs, but not certain.

I am probably not going to do anything to this table, but will assess it better when I spruce up the FP1. I have a couple machines that will be ahead of the FP1, like the surface grinder I just got, and I have a SB Heavy 10 I'm putting back together and just sent the spindle out to have hard turned and ground on centers with new bearings made for it. There could be a YT video on that, news at 11:00...I hired another machinist to do the work for me as I didn't have all the needed tooling and machines to do so.

Cheers,
Alan

traditional-tools said:

Wes,

This is true, but I've seen machine rebuilders scrape the tables, on this Bridgy as an example:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...reconditioned-bridgeport-single-phase-324899/

However, I knew that the Deckel table is scraped on a planer, as I have other machines with scraped tables on them, an old table saw and a couple old jointers, all with the same type scraped lines, so I figured it was done on a planer. However, I don't think a BP has the same table, so that could be why John does that to the BPs, but not certain.

I am probably not going to do anything to this table, but will assess it better when I spruce up the FP1. I have a couple machines that will be ahead of the FP1, like the surface grinder I just got, and I have a SB Heavy 10 I'm putting back together and just sent the spindle out to have hard turned and ground on centers with new bearings made for it. There could be a YT video on that, news at 11:00...I hired another machinist to do the work for me as I didn't have all the needed tooling and machines to do so.

Cheers,
Alan

Click to expand...

As we learned from you know who....the reasons to scrape:

1. too big to machine
2. no machine is precise enough
3. no access to machine to do it
4. avoid deformation from work holding
5. need a sliding surface with good oil retention
6. No better way to occupy your time

dee
;-D

dcsipo said:

As we learned from you know who....the reasons to scrape:

1. too big to machine
2. no machine is precise enough
3. no access to machine to do it
4. avoid deformation from work holding
5. need a sliding surface with good oil retention
6. No better way to occupy your time

dee
;-D

Click to expand...

dee,

Put that way I guess 6 is my motivation...LOL

My plan is to build/create things when I retire. The majority will be done with wood, and some of the iron will be worked by hand, but the machine restorations and tool making will be done on the metalworking machines.

The Deckels are really nice machines in regard to how they were built. The scraping is beautiful on the ways, as-is the spindle and gears...just a great example of a quality built machine. The parts are just beautiful...reminds me of what started me to get into metalworking...I saw a Porsche engine taken apart that was being worked on, and saw Porsche cylinders and pistons for the first time...a true work of art. The Deckel gives me that same feeling.

I will get another Deckel one day, not sure when, but I hope to get a slightly bigger one, like an FP2, or possibly an FP4. I probably don't need it, but that has never stopped me in the past...I think that falls into category 6 also!

Cheers,
Alan

All the older Deckel mills I've seen had planed finishes on the table tops, think they call the tool used a bull nose.
I've said this in a earlier post and still believe it, it doesn't matter how it's done as long as it's a true to the axis surface. I think a planer was used a lot because it was an efficient way to get it done. I worked in a large shop that had many hundreds of machines and have seen them done all different ways. If having it too flat makes it harder to slide parts in place then it just needs a bigger push, if the part is that heavy a lift probably ought to be used or a burr might cut a groove in the table top no matter how it's finished. If grooves are needed to hold swarf then loading clean parts and wiping the table off before loading a part would cover that?
I always liked the finish the Swiss Jig bores had on their table tops, flat with equally spaced narrow but deep grooves length wise. Don't know how they were done but looked like the used a thin slitting saw to cut them?

traditional-tools said:

dee,

Put that way I guess 6 is my motivation...LOL

My plan is to build/create things when I retire. The majority will be done with wood, and some of the iron will be worked by hand, but the machine restorations and tool making will be done on the metalworking machines.

The Deckels are really nice machines in regard to how they were built. The scraping is beautiful on the ways, as-is the spindle and gears...just a great example of a quality built machine. The parts are just beautiful...reminds me of what started me to get into metalworking...I saw a Porsche engine taken apart that was being worked on, and saw Porsche cylinders and pistons for the first time...a true work of art. The Deckel gives me that same feeling.

I will get another Deckel one day, not sure when, but I hope to get a slightly bigger one, like an FP2, or possibly an FP4. I probably don't need it, but that has never stopped me in the past...I think that falls into category 6 also!

Cheers,
Alan

Click to expand...

seriously...if your sliding surfaces are worn, you table is chowdered up, the bearing surfaces are out of alignment, etc, they can all be fixed by scraping, and if #6 is true then, yeah by all means, but if you are in business making money with that machine, then grinding or milling of the non sliding surfaces maybe a better way to go.

Yes the Deckels are a different class.

dee
;D

traditional-tools said:

Do people scrape the tables?

I know many people have restored these beasts, so the question is how to improve a ground table? Seems accurate, I don't have any complaints, was just wondering if I could improve what I have by scraping it? I need to get some accurate measurements on mine before I do anything to it, I haven't done that yet...

Click to expand...

All I can say is that having just received a newly planed table from Franz Singer for my FP2 I wouldn't see or feel the urge to do anything more too it.

At the end of the day you're putting another accessory on top e.g. Vice, Rotary table or DH ... so why would you want to better the base level?

Just my 2 cents worth

John

dcsipo said:

but if you are in business making money with that machine, then grinding or milling of the non sliding surfaces maybe a better way to go.

Click to expand...

Bite your tongue! I almost got a heart attack when I read that...and thankfully I don't need to make money with my machines...in fact if I had to make money with them I wouldn't even be able to live in my house, or be able to build a new home/shop at this time...it's a shame, but machinists can't live in the area where I live, aside from having it as a hobby.

So thankfully, no, I do not need to make money with it...I can use them to make money if I want, but that's a different story!

Actually a bit humorous that I get paid what I do and spend some of my time surfing PM...all the more power to me! LOL (trust me, I work PLENTY of hours, both at work and at home)

John,

I agree with you, it's not as if it's been a problem, and as I've said when I did check my mill out there wasn't a real issue with the measurement. I was more curious if it was better from the factory, and if I could make it better. I wasn't sure if scraping the surface would make it better or not (). I actually consider the surface it originally had to be "scraped" anyway, although if I use that term, I'll have the terminology police on me like a fly on $#!T... I consider a planer to be the epitome of "scraping". However, in the context on this thread I'm using scraping as using a hand scraper or biax to flatten the surface, as not to confuse those hair splitters.

Cheers,
Alan

traditional-tools said:

Let's say this was the case. Would it be advisable to find a planer that could re-scrape the top as close to 90 degrees to the mount before one tuned it in by scraping the mounting surface?

Click to expand...

Lets clarify something here, just to be sure that there is understanding.

Scraping as it is applied to machines is the process of removing very small amounts of material is a very local area (spot) with either a hand powered or powered scraper..that is a single edge tool that
pushes or pulls a small chip in a small area at a time....the surface produced becomes planer by spotting (marking) the surface produced using a known and qualified straight edge of surface plate....
The spotting levees marks that are then locally removed to reduce the high spots....the process is repeated till even coverage is achieved relative to a standard.....
This process is all hand controlled, the working standard is the straight edge or plate.
Scraping is almost always done following cutting or finishing by a machine such as a mill shaper ,planer or grinder....It is generally a final finishing process and can be used to improve the bearing action
of a surface , or correct geometry errors...Can also be used as a final finish..(aesthetic)


The planer is another matter. It produces a surface by moving the tool over the part (actually the part moves...but it doesn't matter for this definition) .
Here the accuracy (surface truth) is a function of the machine itself.....it will ,unlike scraping, never produce a surface more accurate than the planer itself.....
Like a mill it can only produce a surface that mirrors the accuracy of the slides that produce the part movement under the tool....
Shapers, planers and mills are used for roughing and finish work.

So if contemplating planing your table top to refresh the surface...what you are doing to be accurate is not scraping (in the machine sense) but rather cutting the top.with a continuous tool action (not spot to spot like scraping)..could be a skim (light) cut, but to call it "scraping" to me is really not correct and might lead to some confusion as to what you are actually intending...

Sorry if i am hair splitting here,but this is a machinist form...not a philosophy discussion...definitions need to be as precise as the work,

Cheers Ross

traditional-tools said:

Wes,

This is true, but I've seen machine rebuilders scrape the tables, on this Bridgy as an example:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...reconditioned-bridgeport-single-phase-324899/

...

Cheers,
Alan

Click to expand...

I might be wrong about this, but I think scraping and frosting are being conflated here.

My understanding is that scraping is a time consuming process used to make a surface flat, resulting in randomish scrape marks.

Frosting is used for oil retention, or just decoratively, and results in the pretty scalloped or similar patterns, and takes a lot less time (I've seen Biax frosters mounted in CNC mills for automated frosting). The Bridgeport in the above ad looks like it's been frosted, not scraped, but it's tough to tell from the pictures.

I've also seen machines that have been frosted over worn bearing surfaces, which gives the appearance of accuracy.