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  1. #21
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    Thanos, if your collet adaptor gets stuck, see this. Cheers, Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Hi Thanos.

    I can see you are using a long 20 mm collet in an adapter.
    Problem is, you may have a problem getting the adapter out...
    You should find a threaded adapter with a nut to pull it out.

    Cheers
    Erik

    PS: I sold my 20mm collet set after I saw they couldn't grip an end mill very well.
    And I had already earlier invested in some OZ collets, ER collets and Weldon (side screw) holders.
    Hi Erik,

    thanks for the advice. I had come accross end mills slipping in the 355 collets in my previous mill (FP1 copy) and attributed this to wear. Thought I would have better luck with the FP2, collets seem in better shape.
    What annoys me more about this system though, is that securing pin in the adapter and the adapter having no driving rings or the like. This will make sure that the collet will be save and will not rotate inside the adapter, but the adapter is free to rotate in the spindle taper....how clever is this??
    Add, on top of this, your comment on the extraction risks of this adapter.....I'll find myself an ER32 holder and put my ER collets to good use...

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Hi again,

    here you may find some pics of the tool and of it being put to use.

    Here is the setup. Final drive bolted on a plate secured in the vice. Strap tie holding the socket so that it won't lift and destroy everything. What you can't see is the 1 m extension required to undo the nut. Specs for tightening are 180 Nm, I think it took much more than this to break it loose....



    And here is the tool along with the removed nut. I am not posting a larger picture, wouldn't want you all to see that lousy finish in the slots. Did not have the patience to finish the tool properly before knowing it would even work at all...I'll repair the finish between the teeth towards the outer edge but cannot do much for the back of the slots where I tool the endmill a bit too far towards one tooth. For driving the tool I opted for (stick) welding an old socket (in a turned recess). I did not like the option of having a socket engaging a hex at the back of the tool, one more tool than necessary in an operation that would require a lot of torque....

    The nice thing is that the nut's slots were not damaged at all and we are talking about an aluminum nut taking all this torque...


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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    What you can't see is the 1 m extension required to undo the nut. Specs for tightening are 180 Nm, I think it took much more than this to break it loose....
    In 1984, in the kitchen of my apartment in Goleta CA, I rebuilt the 1098cc engine of my 1965 C-registered MG Midget. I still have a clear memory of removing the crankshaft nut. I had borrowed a 3/4" socket set and a suitable socket, and put a 4-foot length of pipe over the handle as an extension. I stood on the engine block and my friend Rob jumped from a chair onto the end of the pipe with both feet. I still remember the crack as the nut broke loose, and wondering if we had broken the end of the crankshaft (we did not).

    With 30+ years of perspective, the right answer is an impact wrench, manual or air-powered .
    Last edited by ballen; 07-17-2017 at 05:54 AM.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    .
    .
    .
    .
    I stood on the engine block and my friend Rob jumped from a chair onto the end of the pipe with both feet.
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Well Bruce, a real shame you didn't have smartphones back then...funny enough picturing it in one's head though....

    Having much less long experience messing with such stuff myself I enjoy remembering the times when I managed repairs with minimal tooling and impressive results, considering....I guess this has happened to most here, when time was more than tooling and you could spare the extra effort to work around something that would require the 'proper' tool if was done now. Or, it might have been pure luck and ignorance

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Light duty stuff!! Type 57 Bugatti cranks (Long straight 8) have the cam drive rear flywheel flange and main journals #4 &5 fitted to the rear of the crank as a removable
    part held together via a long taper....
    Takes about 40 tons and big heat via rose bud on the torch to break those loose......
    Used to work at Westinghouse where we rebuilt the traction motors off diesel-electric locomotives....motors drive the axle by a pinion on the motor shaft. Those pinions are retained simply on the taper..
    No key or pins...just the taper....had a purpose press to remove the gears...often took 200-250 tons to break them loose...with lots of big quick heat....

    Just did a job here fitting cylinder liners into a "Lampredi" Ferrari engine....Liners are screwed into the block with no head gasket...just the iron liner seating against a taper in the chamber.
    Takes about 650-700 foot pounds of torque to get them to seal......Gotta have the block bolted down on the FP4NC in order to keep it from moving.....Uses a shop built pin drive socket by the way....
    Ferrari Lampredi engine - Wikipedia


    Now as to your "theoretical" question......some thoughts. First off if doing the part shown in your first sketch....and you needed some very specific angle between the ends of the slots,,,,()not sure why one would ever need
    this type of part to be that accurate) I think given the normal "kit" of Deckel accessories, i would simply calculate the locations of the center for each arc at the end of the slot and
    move to those locations using the machine in a jig boring setup....here is a condition that one might wish to have tenths reading DRO or indicators to describe the positions....
    once the end bores were finished i would then complete the slot between by rotating the part,,,,,

    Now the case where you need to mill two faces at a set angle, making the faces "radial" to the center of the part rotation.....Here you are not going to get what you seek without additional tooling.
    The Deckel dividing head is setup to make discrete steps..the name says it..."Dividing Head".....made to divide a circle into common even steps....to make something with a specified angle
    unless that angle fell as a multiple of the dividing head ratio and plate drillings, you are not going to be able to generate this angle. Really need a device that is more "analog" to give virtually any angle......
    Optical or compound dividing..wide range dividing or differential indexing....The Deckel spiral milling attachment could be used for some of this but the setup is difficult. Deckel also made and optical rotary table...

    However you could employ the rotary hand wheel accessory for the dividing head (different from the rotary table hand wheel because the geared ratios are different, table vrs dividing head)

    The setup would be to fabricate a parallel that you could clamp with a flat face against one surface..Cut the first face, then clamp the parallel to that face.....so that the parallel is running perpendicular to the
    part rotational axis.....then rotate the part in the desired direction and aprox. the correct angle.....setup your sine bar and gauge blocks ( for the desired angle) on the parallel and indicate the sine bar till its flat by indicating....
    Part not has been rotated the desired angle...clamp the spindle and cut the second face after removing the sine bar and parallel of course....

    Further there is nothing to prevent you from making a dedicated index plate that has the exact spacing needed for doing the angle you require...the math is done and the location ot the needed hole is located by
    using jig boring coordinates and a hole is run into the plate....at the precise location needed to produce the needed angle,,,,,,,,


    Of course, the reality is that nobody would expect or attempt machining an angle on a part to the accuracy you call on a mill....this is grinding country and there are lots of additional rules that must be followed if
    work like this is going to be successful.....

    Sure there are more techniques...but this will do for me ...spent too many key strokes on this theory for now..
    Cheers Ross

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  11. #27
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    Ross, these are nice solutions, I particularly like the "calculate the X/Y locations of the ends of each slot and bore them using the mill as an X/Y positioning jig borer. Then remove the material in between. Simple and straightforward. Cheers, Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Thanos, if your collet adaptor gets stuck, see this. Cheers, Bruce
    Thanks Bruce, I've studied your solution there thoroughly, ready to replicate it if it ever comes to that!

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Light duty stuff!! Type 57 Bugatti cranks (Long straight 8) have the cam drive rear flywheel flange and main journals #4 &5 fitted to the rear of the crank as a removable
    part held together via a long taper....
    Takes about 40 tons and big heat via rose bud on the torch to break those loose......
    Used to work at Westinghouse where we rebuilt the traction motors off diesel-electric locomotives....motors drive the axle by a pinion on the motor shaft. Those pinions are retained simply on the taper..
    No key or pins...just the taper....had a purpose press to remove the gears...often took 200-250 tons to break them loose...with lots of big quick heat....

    Just did a job here fitting cylinder liners into a "Lampredi" Ferrari engine....Liners are screwed into the block with no head gasket...just the iron liner seating against a taper in the chamber.
    Takes about 650-700 foot pounds of torque to get them to seal......Gotta have the block bolted down on the FP4NC in order to keep it from moving.....Uses a shop built pin drive socket by the way....
    Ferrari Lampredi engine - Wikipedia


    Now as to your "theoretical" question......some thoughts. First off if doing the part shown in your first sketch....and you needed some very specific angle between the ends of the slots,,,,()not sure why one would ever need
    this type of part to be that accurate) I think given the normal "kit" of Deckel accessories, i would simply calculate the locations of the center for each arc at the end of the slot and
    move to those locations using the machine in a jig boring setup....here is a condition that one might wish to have tenths reading DRO or indicators to describe the positions....
    once the end bores were finished i would then complete the slot between by rotating the part,,,,,

    Now the case where you need to mill two faces at a set angle, making the faces "radial" to the center of the part rotation.....Here you are not going to get what you seek without additional tooling.
    The Deckel dividing head is setup to make discrete steps..the name says it..."Dividing Head".....made to divide a circle into common even steps....to make something with a specified angle
    unless that angle fell as a multiple of the dividing head ratio and plate drillings, you are not going to be able to generate this angle. Really need a device that is more "analog" to give virtually any angle......
    Optical or compound dividing..wide range dividing or differential indexing....The Deckel spiral milling attachment could be used for some of this but the setup is difficult. Deckel also made and optical rotary table...

    However you could employ the rotary hand wheel accessory for the dividing head (different from the rotary table hand wheel because the geared ratios are different, table vrs dividing head)

    The setup would be to fabricate a parallel that you could clamp with a flat face against one surface..Cut the first face, then clamp the parallel to that face.....so that the parallel is running perpendicular to the
    part rotational axis.....then rotate the part in the desired direction and aprox. the correct angle.....setup your sine bar and gauge blocks ( for the desired angle) on the parallel and indicate the sine bar till its flat by indicating....
    Part not has been rotated the desired angle...clamp the spindle and cut the second face after removing the sine bar and parallel of course....

    Further there is nothing to prevent you from making a dedicated index plate that has the exact spacing needed for doing the angle you require...the math is done and the location ot the needed hole is located by
    using jig boring coordinates and a hole is run into the plate....at the precise location needed to produce the needed angle,,,,,,,,


    Of course, the reality is that nobody would expect or attempt machining an angle on a part to the accuracy you call on a mill....this is grinding country and there are lots of additional rules that must be followed if
    work like this is going to be successful.....

    Sure there are more techniques...but this will do for me ...spent too many key strokes on this theory for now..
    Cheers Ross
    Hi Ross,

    - one must be very confident about knowing exactly what his is doing when using such crazy torques to fut and unfit part from very expensive engines.....

    - regarding the theoretical talk, thanks for the advice, I think you got me covered. Except from your elegant solutions with Deckel tooling regarding both my scenarios, I understand that:
    1. what I had in mind as a common procedure may not be that common after all (in terms that it is not so commonly needed to build such stuff), and
    2. there is no deckel tooling providing the exact functionallity I was referring to, out of the box.

    Thanks guys

    BR,
    Thanos

  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    2. there is no deckel tooling providing the exact functionallity I was referring to, out of the box.
    Thanks guys
    BR,
    Thanos
    Pretty sure i have beaten this to death by now...but i take some exception to your suggestion that somehow the range of Deckel accessories is lacking.
    Its not difficult to "invent" conditions, tolerances or finish requirements that are not achievable in any working machine shop regardless of the equipment on the floor..
    The range of accessories provided by Deckel well covers the machines and the work they were designed to do.....Your example is "extreme" and as i stated not the realm of work
    anyone would generally undertake on a mill by itself.....Working with tolerances/dimensions extended far reaching past decimal points demands entirely different systems.....
    I would not attempt to make a functioning "air bearing" spindle using a lathe alone.....Nor would i attempt to rework the internal taper of my mill spindle using single edge cutting tools on the lathe....

    Your FP2 is a very good milling machine, well designed and built, where its accessories support its intended design and purpose. Its not by any stretch of the imagination in the same class as a Moore jig grinder....

    Cheers Ross

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Pretty sure i have beaten this to death by now...but i take some exception to your suggestion that somehow the range of Deckel accessories is lacking.
    Its not difficult to "invent" conditions, tolerances or finish requirements that are not achievable in any working machine shop regardless of the equipment on the floor..
    The range of accessories provided by Deckel well covers the machines and the work they were designed to do.....Your example is "extreme" and as i stated not the realm of work
    anyone would generally undertake on a mill by itself.....Working with tolerances/dimensions extended far reaching past decimal points demands entirely different systems.....
    I would not attempt to make a functioning "air bearing" spindle using a lathe alone.....Nor would i attempt to rework the internal taper of my mill spindle using single edge cutting tools on the lathe....

    Your FP2 is a very good milling machine, well designed and built, where its accessories support its intended design and purpose. Its not by any stretch of the imagination in the same class as a Moore jig grinder....

    Cheers Ross
    Agreed on this Ross.

    As I mentioned above, in point 1, it was my feeling that what I was talking about would be something that might have been generically useful, so that companies (and deckel most of all) would have provided readily available tooling. I have been persuaded by your (and the rest of the quys') suggestions that this is not a common operation so that it comes to no surprise that Deckel did not provide for this.

    Have still a lot to learn...

    (that's what I was trying to summarize as: 'not common operation and/so no deckel tool for this')

    BR,
    Thanos


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