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Dialog11 vs previous Deckel Controls

Colt45

Hot Rolled
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Nov 27, 2004
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What are the differences between Dialog11 and earlier controls, specifically Dialog4?
Is the user interface pretty much the same? File transfer any easier? How does it compare with complex moves like 3D surfacing-is the processing speed faster?
Interested in comparisons and impressions.
 
What are the differences between Dialog11 and earlier controls, specifically Dialog4?
Is the user interface pretty much the same? File transfer any easier? How does it compare with complex moves like 3D surfacing-is the processing speed faster?
Interested in comparisons and impressions.
Although I've owned and repaired probably half a dozen Deckels with D11, I have yet to write the first program for one and have only run programs already in memory from a previous owner and uploaded parameters.... so I'm not the one to know about the advantages of D11 in that respect.

But what I will say is I now think the D11 in the USA is almost a moot point. I say that unless you have two D11 machines where you can swap control modules and/or EPROMs to find for sure which one goes bad, and then repair that module at the component level....the expense is just too great. Modules start at $3,000 and some are more like $5,000 EACH.......with the icing on the cake being that price is for another used module and with exchange ! So if your exchange get's lost on it's way to Germany you are really SOL....and because the "new" unit is not really new, it could have an older component go out on it a few months later as well. I could go on but hopefully you get the picture....

=======================

FWIW, the last D11 module I repaired I eliminated every component on the board as ok except the static RAM memory chips.... of which there were 20 with 20 legs on each one. Of course they were obsolete but I did track down 20 NOS ones in the UK at reasonable price. The usual proceedure for this would be to snip all 20 legs of each chip and desolder just the snipped leg remnants.

But I was determined to find out exactly which of the 20 were bad...and hoped it would be one of the first few I removed. So I was forced to become a champion desolderer..... desoldering 20 legs of each chip without damaging a single trace or chip....then testing each chip in an IC test device I bought on eBay.

After several afternoons of this (a "spare time" thing) I was getting pretty discouraged by chip 15...each test getting a "good" reading on the IC tester. But at chip 17 I think... finally I see "ERROR" on the tester....I checked it over and over.... what a glorious moment to keep seeing "ERROR" ! But at that point I went ahead and desolded the rest to make sure they were ok as well...and they were.

So, that is 400 desoderings on one board, and 400 resoders (used sockets for the resolder)....but it worked.....D11 went from not working at all, to working perfectly.

Scared off now ? :willy_nilly:
 
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What would be your opinion, comparing both if there wont be the problem with new cards ?
So if you help me with schematics or something like that , i will generate new cards .
Done that already for some Dialog 4 Cards.
Regards Michael
 
What would be your opinion, comparing both if there wont be the problem with new cards ?
So if you help me with schematics or something like that , i will generate new cards .
Schematics for D11 cards are nearly impossible to come by. There is a PM member here in Germany who I shall not name who supposedly has some D11 schematics but he didn't have the one I needed when I needed it anyway.

And to clarify, when I talk about "modules" I mean units that slide out of the control box that usually contain more than one card. So not only do you have to swap modules around from a known good machine to confirm which one is bad on the broken control, once narrowed down to the module you further have to swap boards within the module to pin point the bad board.

Further complexity is added if the two machine are not of the same software version.. So not only do you need two D11 machines, it is best if both machines are of the same software version. Although even if different software versions most modules can still be swapped.

However naturally it is the two of so modules where the software version is critical to be the same that are the most likely to go bad ! Still, even then, you can swap the EPROMs that determine the software version as the EPROMs are always in socketed enclosures and can be plucked out and switched around....so different software version D11 controls can still be helpful... just more time consuming to deal with.

My most bizarre D11 repair was where a previous owner somehow managed to install the wrong EPROM !! If not for FPS finding the right one the machine would have been scrapped....all because of previous owner stupidity. The mystery is how that happened in the first place....Now I'll let Monarchist speculate on how, so I can then respond how that was impossible. ;)
 
The good thing with a D11 is that it's old enough to make it easy to repair with quite inexpensive tools.

I would never try to repair the control system in my 2002 Sinumerik 840D system if one of the modules break. It's either replace the modules with expensive used ones or trash the machine.

I'm planning to have my D11 machines for another 40 years or so.. and for each year it will be easier to repair them as my experience grows for each year.

For production use and in another life... I guess I would never buy a D11 machine. :)
 
Regarding the main question. I'm also interested to know a little bit more about the differences more than the colour display.
 
The good thing with a D11 is that it's old enough to make it easy to repair with quite inexpensive tools.



I'm planning to have my D11 machines for another 40 years or so.. and for each year it will be easier to repair them as my experience grows for each year.


:)

Although not in my sights....Personally have no interest in a D11. If i am going to give up the absolute best user interface (D4) i want to make the leap to something really modern....

However it is Cool for those with the D11 as..now we know where to send a 'dead" D11 module for repair....Thanks!
Cheers Ross
 
The good thing with a D11 is that it's old enough to make it easy to repair with quite inexpensive tools.
If it is so "easy" then why did you have to buy a new module from DMG years ago ? I guess by "easy" you mean no surface mount components...everything large enough to desolder and resolder with conventional tools ?

I still think D11 is ok to own but only if you have at least two D11 machines to have module swapping possibilities.

=========================================

But there is another aspect to them I didn't mention earlier, that was the nail in the coffin for me....

I shipped a D11 machine to a customer years ago where one of the modules came out somehow in shipping and got beat up a little by some tooling I put in the floor of the electrical cabinet. The tooling damaged the board a little and came within a hair of damaging an eprom like chip that I later found out was coded and locked. I forget the name of that type of IC but it is similar to an EPROM but once special coded for the machine it is locked with no possibility of downloading it's data without knowing the encryption password.

If this chip had been damaged beyond physical repair (i.e. something worse than a leg or trace to it breaking) there would have been absolutely no choice but to buy a whole new (new-used really... $3,500 at the time) module !!!! All because of a $4 IC.

Now in reality, these few locked IC's may last "forever" if not physically damaged, and I may be making more of this that it deserves...but just the fact that there are essentially irreplaceable IC's lurking in that control gives me the willies ! Thus adding to my future avoidance of D11 machines.

Having said all that, for all I know the D2-D4 controls have similar locked IC's....but even if so at least with those you can find the individual boards for way less money. (plus as mentioned earlier, without physical damage they may last a lifetime anyway)
 
If it is so "easy" then why did you have to buy a new module from DMG years ago ? I guess by "easy" you mean no surface mount components...everything large enough to desolder and resolder with conventional tools ?

I started to laugh a little for myself when I cooked dinner after I made that post since that D11 is still not running 10 years later.. (I never bought the module from DMG)

But yeah, what I mean is that most components (except for the PLDs) are still available and sourceable, and there are no BGAs or other complicated packages. The boards are quite simple (relative) to reverse-enginner compared to the modern alternatives.

Still it would take a huge amount of time to reverse-engineer and make the tools required to be able to perform cost-effctive repairs of the boards. ;)


I agree The PLDs is the real killer on these boards. You were lucky there
 
I started to laugh a little for myself when I cooked dinner after I made that post since that D11 is still not running 10 years later.. (I never bought the module from DMG)
Trying the module from DMG was a similar thing as "swapping" modules between two D11 machines you already own, except it's way easier to swap between machines you have right there and then swap boards and EPROMS within the confirmed bad module to pinpoint the exact board or EPROM that has something wrong with it.

Yes PLD, programmable logic device...that's it. I suspect in reality whoever took over the remains of Grundig could supply a new PLD (or better yet, just the code for a new blank one) but they simply refuse to do so, and force you to buy the entire new used module ! This according to FPS anyway...

This sort of thing is why I will probably never buy a Zeiss CMM.... I despise being held hostage to specific software....
 
.....I say that unless you have two D11 machines where you can swap control modules and/or EPROMs to find for sure which one goes bad, and then repair that module at the component level....the expense is just too great....


Agree with pretty much everything you wrote in that post and the others.
I find the situation a bit the same running Dialog4 machines-super glad to have 2 and the ability to swap parts. Both machines run pretty well, but one machine has software issues with the rounding error, would be nice to get that fixed.

Would consider a D11 machine, but it would have to be as easy to use as Dialog4 AND have faster processing speed and better file management/transfer, otherwise I think Heidenhain is the way to go. Definitely easier to support.

In my opinion we get spoiled a bit by low priced, high end used machines-real industrial stuff costs a lot of money to develop, inventory and service over time. New Deckels with various Dialog Controls were pretty expensive when new,around $100,000+ in the late 1980s. When you buy a used machine at a fraction of the cost of new, it doesn't mean the replacement parts or service are going to be proportionate. The market is limited, so Grundig and their resellers are probably just trying to recoup their costs and maybe make a little money while they are at it-can't really begrudge them for doing that. Doesn't mean I like paying $$$$$ for replacement parts, but I understand why they can be expensive.

Still no one on the board with any hands-on time running Dialog 11?
 








 
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