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early FP2 cabinet tool arrangement

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Location
Greece
Hi to all,

sorry for the not-so-important question but I need to ask and hope someone can answer.

I have a tool cabinet matching my early FP2, the one-piece item with the 6 drawers at the top and, below that, a door with a moving shelf plus the bottom shelf. This one here:

attachment.php


(semi taken-apart due to internal moving etc).

The FP2 manual provides guidelines as to what goes where, which is ok for the big stuff like the rotary table, but has no pics showing how they intended for the rest of the tools to be arranged. There are wooden jigs at the bottom of the drawers, some self explanatory, some not. I am certainly not as clever as the cabinet designer, so it's not obvious to me which of the small (and not so small...) tools goes where. On top of this I am short on time, so it's not easy to try and reverse engineer all hooks, and, I may have ended up with extra tooling that might not have a place in the cabinet to begin with.

In any case, some of the drawers are still a mess. If anyone has insight, or, preferably, pictures showing the intended tool arrangement, it would be highly appreciated. Not all will fit the 'deckel way' but I would like to see how the thing was designed and use this as a guideline.

Thanks in advance.

King regards,
thanos
 
Hi Karl, thanks for the reply,

I have a copy of this french brochure myself as well. It seems that the cabinet is not exactly the same. Mine, as you can see in the picture, has a large drawer in the bottom compartment and a single door, sliding below the drawers when open. It seems that the design show in the french brochure might be better than what I have since each attachement has it own slider while in mine the single drawer suffers if you really load it.

Anyhow, indeed the pics in the brochure are small, who would imagine that some guys would try to magnify them half a century later...

BR,
Thanos
 
Think this is going to be a tough quest....
Problem is that the cabinets were made for a specific model of machine and its associated accessories/tools at that point in time.....
If you are like most of us you have collected odds and sods over time , and they are not all from the same era.....Maybe correct type for your machine, but may be detail differences
and as such you will find that not all will fit in the cabinet as illustrated in the day.....

My suggestion is to lay out all the accessories tooling and tools that are specific for your machine.
prioritize the goods as to how often you use each....Place those items in the top drawers...making your own dividers and slots to accommodate.

Make a template (cardboard) the size of the drawers...use this to lay out the stuff you wish to store in the cabinet...keeping like items together in a logical arrangement.
Do your own layout make dividers and nests as needed for your tooling.
The large items will be the hardest to deal with.....likely you won't get everything in the cabinet...overflow storage will be required if you have a full compliment of large accessories.....

The factory arrangement is great, but you really need to house the stuff you have on hand.
When you get it all sorted out and perfect, please post full pictures and descriptions so we may all benefit..

As an aside, personally i like the cabinet with the pull up large door.....takes less space (important) in front of the cabinet to allow full access.


Cheers Ross
 
Hi Ross,

so you suggest I assume responsibility, actually prioritize my needs and not just rely on someone else's design decisions... ;)

Well, that's a bold decision, easier for a pro to take than a hobbyist. You know that we (hobbyists) tend to stick to factory specs, sometimes religiously, which, in this case, could easily have me 'wasting' a drawer e.g. with all the puch milling tools that are, for me, very highly improbably to ever be used. (To my defence I haven't gone there, punch milling tools are stored in the, what you called, 'overflow storage', except for the lovely centering vise).

Seriously now, that's kind of what I've been doing already, hidding away tools not likely to be used and trying to fit the ones that I need the most. However, I would really want to take a peek at the factory approach, even out of curiosity. For example, in the bottom compartment, I can see where the the slotting and the angular spindle head fit, but there is no nest for e.g. the high speed head. And that's only the sliding drawer. How should things fit in the non-sliding bottom shelf, and, mostly, how they are supposed to be taken out e.g. a heavy table. Now that I think of it an addition of a sliding shelf on the bottom would be a nice idea.

So, I'll come back on this, just don't hold your breath...

BR,
Thanos
 
Hi All,

Thanos, I completely understand your viewpoint and have wondered the same thing about my cabinet, which seems to be different from any other that i`ve seen.

Looking at the photos of those jam packed cabinets, it`s difficult to see how those heavy objects such as the high speed head that are lying on the bottom could be extracted and replaced without a lot of back breaking effort!

The only part of my cabinet that i`ve so far identified with some accuracy, is an outward sliding shelf that has wooden blocks and holes in it, used to store the overarms on.

I`ve promised myself that one day I will sort this problem out and create a system to single handedly maneuvre the heads out of the cabinet and onto the machine, in my case, an overhead gantry will probably be used.

Alan
 
Hi Alan,

regarding the overhead gantry, the ones that are already there will testify to its value, the rest of us will certainly agree. For me, problem is space. I cannot fit permanent beams in my shop and I have not, yet, figured out which gantry design will use the least space. Will it be on wheels (useful for extra tasks as well around the shop) or something fixed. In any case, even with a gantry, sliding shelves make sense. The way I see it, even with a gantry, it would not be that easy to push a e.g. table to the back of the bottom shelf!

One could argue that attachements may not need to be changed that often. But this it the case when you have to ask for help and do heavy lifting, so you avoid changing. For what I do, I would certainly switch to e.g. the tilting table or the high speed head if I could do it on my own.

I am trying to think of a way to put together a low profile sliding shelf for the bottom compartment now. It does not need to by supported by the cabinet itself, it will roll on the cabinet bottom and the floor. I just have to find a nice way to make the front rollers retractable so that it can slide back in.

Asked for some advice on tool arrangement and ended up pushing a new project in the list....nice....

BR,
Thanos
 
Hi All,

Thanos, excellent idea to create sliding shelves within the existing structure of the cabinet that will give the ability to access those heavy items from within the lower part to enable them to be lifted directly by the lifting device of choice without requiring assistance! You could add those lifting lugs to the heads as done by Bruce, also use those units designed for sliding drawers, high tech versions of the ones that Deckel used. I bought a job lot of them and some will bear the weight required, which I will be happy to send to you free of charge if you want them.

We have seen some rather doubtful systems put forward by experienced Deckel machinists that could be said to be potentially dangerous! The type of device that i`m talking about is the tower that is pushed around the workshop which, if properly designed, will be satisfactory but this is not often the case and some of these are an accident waiting to happen.

On the other hand, some excellent systems have been created and these are where the use of an overhead beam is used.

If you have the headroom in your workshop, you could easily and cheaply build an overhead beam supported at each end by pillars that can be made mobile if required, by the addition of castors. I had one of these that was capable of lifting 250 Kg but unfortunately had to scrap it due to losing my workshop some years ago and I still feel the pain!

Alan
 
Hi Alan,

are you talking about drawer slides? I am thinking of relaxing the design and not replicating the top sliding shelf mechanism. I mean, since the bottom shelf is....at the bottom, there is no need for overhang. So I am talking about rollers at the back and roller with retractable feet at the front. Maybe another pair of roller midlength so that the shelf does not fall to the front before retracting the front feet with rollers.

It seems easier this way so it seems I won't be needing the slides you offerred (if I understood correctly), though I thank you very much for the offer!!

BR,
Thanos
 
On the other hand, the height of the retractable feet might be too much for them to be robust, and that's without taking into account the flatness (or not quite so) of the floor. So, proper slides might be the wisest option after all....Let me take a look first, I think I'll make it to the workshop later today.

BR,
Thanos
 
Have a look here!

attachment.php


They also did it themselves! That's second gen FP2 brochure.

It seems like they nailed it with this one, seems very organized with direct access to all tools (bar the spiral attachement :) )

BR,
Thanos
 
Thanos:

If you are considering having a shelf that is fitted with casters or rollers on its underside to allow it to roll out of the cabinet...suggest you consider having a bridge piece ...like a spacer you place on the floor in
front of the cabinet opening that allows the rollers to just roll out on to the platform..Don't need to retract the front rollers then....Does not need to be solid, just a channel for each roller row and they could be stowed on the inside of the flip up door....
Accessible once the door was opened....A small nest or bracket attached to the lower frame of the cabinet would locate the channels....

Only issue i see here is the loss of valuable head room by the height of the rollers and the shelf...

As to lifting..here i constructed (shop built) a jib crane for servicing my machines. I located the center post as an island around which the main machines are stationed so that it services several machines....
At home one can construct a sturdy jib crane even if the base mounting is not perfect...
IMO jib cranes use the least valuable floor space...easy to use (always available) and can be purchased relatively inexpensively of made in the shop......

Schedule 80 tube for the support column ... the top the column can be stabilized with a ball bearing and brackets where you attach cable running out to the corners of your shop like the spokes of a wheel...
Anchored to the walls with tension from turn buckles..3 or 4 equally spaced "arms" will make the crane stable with little structure that gets in the way...If built this way the vertical column will not need a huge base anchor in order to be stable..

This discussion may seem to have veered off your original question...but to me seems all part of the overall question of shop organization in that the cabinet is but one connected link.
Cheers Ross
 
Hi Ross,

I like the way this thread is going, clever ideas, nice tips.

Totally agree on the bridge extension for the sliding bottom drawer, makes life so much easier than any kind of retractable feet. Thanks for the suggestion! Regarding the height loss, I think it won't be that severe. I'll remove the wooden bottom and fit a nice sheet metal below it. Properly bent all over for strength. Rollers can be small bearings, e.g. 20 mm OD. So, bearings plus sheet metal, we are talking about a height penalty of less than an inch which, I think, is not a big issue. I'll check however, if the table fits, I'm ok.

As for the jib crane, I had to look the term up but that has been one of the options I have been considering. Talking about that, my friend Kyriakos even suggested that the column could be fixed on the side of the cabinet, which could work with some reinforcement. Thanks for the cable idea, it could save the day. However, I think I can fix the column both on the floor and the ceiling, so that I can avoid the cable aproach. Also, since I will have only 180 degrees of working range of the crane I can avoid a round column which would require large bearings and could complicate things (assembly-wise) provided column will be supported top and bottom. So, I am thinking about square tube or H beam for the column. Fat plates welded at the bottom and top and a simple bracket with bearings (have to think about this a bit more) to support the horizontal part. I've already received a chain hoist from Kyriakos, so, in principle, I'm ready to go. Design the support bracket, get the material, weld up and you're good to go (after finishing the dozen of tasks higher in the priority list....)

Thanks for the encouragement, means a lot.

BR,
Thanos
 
Thanos:
Schedule 80 tube for the support column ... the top the column can be stabilized with a ball bearing and brackets where you attach cable running out to the corners of your shop like the spokes of a wheel...
Anchored to the walls with tension from turn buckles..3 or 4 equally spaced "arms" will make the crane stable with little structure that gets in the way...If built this way the vertical column will not need a huge base anchor in order to be stable..
Cheers Ross

Hi all.

Ross what diameter schedule 80 pipe do you suggest be used? I always advocate that "simplest is best" but if the tension applied to those wires and turnbuckles don`t implode the walls in Thanos`s workshop, then your suggestion serves a dual role in that his laundry can be hung over those wires to dry!

Thanos, I enclose photos of the drawer sliders that I have, the dimensions are; body 45mm wide x 12mm thick by 600mm long and extends 500mm. This is the correct length for the cabinet which is 680mm deep.

DSCN1444.jpg

Although they came in the original packing, no details of load capacity were included! I will be using them on my cabinet sometime in the future and I believe that they will be able to carry the loads that we are talking about but probably will protest if stood upon! You would need a rigid shelf that puts the load directly vertically on the sliders.

DSCN1443.jpg

Here is a photo of my cabinet.

As far as the lifting device is concerned, I would not fix your column to your electric cabinet and in my opinion a beam supported on columns would give flexibility in positioning that you won`t get with the jib crane as suggested by Ross. Also as the structure would be self supporting, no unwanted loads are transmitted to your workshop structure.

Unfortunately I can`t really go into any depth about the design of the beam structure unless I have some basic details about your workshop.

Alan
 
Hi to all,

Alan, thanks for the reply. On your points specifically:

- regarding the drawer slides, I am thinking that even in the case of Ross's approach with the bridge extension, I'll need some guides for the drawer to limit its move left to right. Drawer slides might be a nice solution here but it's the 45 mm height that troubles me. But probably you can put them on the side of the drawer and not below it, so again we are talking about 45/2 which is ok.

- thanks for the picture of your cabinet, 'nice' to see that I am not the only one here with a neat and perfectly organized cabinet...:)

- Now to the lifting thing. Yeap, as Bruce said, one of the initial thoughts were mounting the crane to the tool cabinet. The idea was that it will be right where it's needed, near the actual tool cabinet. With some reinforcement it would work, provided that we are talking about 60ish kgrs max load (I don't think I'll ever end up with a full range swivelling table, not that it would even fit in the cabinet...).

- Columns-and-beam crane is also an option under consideration. Advantage is, as you said, versatility. I am working on motorcycles as well, and this would come handy occassionally when you want to lift a bike for something. Not to mention that you can easily remove parts of your machine tools for repairs. Problem is space. I understand that columns should be mounted in the middle of the feet, lengthwise. Also, due to the height (should clear the FP2 plus chain hoist), feet should be substantial. I am still looking into it, but I am afraid I might not have the space for this.

- Load imposed on the workshop by the jib crane is not an issue. It's southern Greece here, no wooden houses and also rich with earthquake activity so no concrete shortage here, don't bother about this.

- And, finally, shouldn't design of such crane be independent of workshop? I mean, for our particular case it has to clear the cabinet and the machine, length-wise and height-wise, right? If I am missing something, I can provide details of course in case you can assist!

Best regards,
Thanos


ps. sorry about the silly question, but what is this '80 pipe' guys???
edit: ok...googled it....:)
 
Hi All,

Thanos, the slides are designed so that they are bolted to the side of the cabinet and the shelf can be constructed from sheet steel in a shallow "U" shape with the bottom of the "U" close to the bottom of the cabinet. Just look at the drawers in your cabinet to see what I mean.

Looking at your cabinet, I can see that it already has a large drawer quite close to bottom of the cabinet and if you want to store heads underneath they will have to be placed on their sides on their shelves. I imagine that you will want to make about three drawers so that you will need six slides. The slides will need to be supported by a piece of angle steel for the middle drawer.

About schedule 80 pipe, This is a term used for oil industry pipe and refers to the pipe thickness not the diameter, I was just returning Ross`s "nit picking".

Alan
 
Hi Alan,

large bottom compartment of the cabinet (below drawers) can't have extra drawers I am afraid. If one was to add drawers, then heads and tables would not fit. Only thing that can be done, and that's still questionable, is whether the bottom of the cabinet can be made to slide out, for easier access to the parts inside (the ones that would be below the existing sliding drawer that is).

Regarding that one, not sure exactly how it should be made. Sheet metal U shape is not enough for sure if the sliding shelf is to be supported only by it's sides. But, since this is the bottom part, I guess one could add some sliders below the shelf in the middle. There should be some kind of slides with top mounting.

BR,
Thanos
 
I would make the sliding shelf from 1" square tube. TIG weld into perimeter with a little clearance to the insides of the cabinet. .One length wise tube centered front to back
Would have cross tubes at the center and at the 1/3 point of the width...That is where i would put the rollers that support the structure....Likely use two tubes here that have the rollers between using bolts as axles in double shear (through two tubes)..use welded in tubes where the bolts pass through for strength and to prevent the tube from collapsing.
Would have the rollers running in shallow steel "U" shaped channels welded into the cabinet....the channels would make a sort of rail road track to guide the shelf...
Then have extensions that you put out in front of the cabinet the extends the channels so the shelf can be rolled out fully.....
On top of the frame i would use marine plywood or the like to give a soft surface to set the accessories on.....

Think i would also make a "Wall at the rear of the shelf using the same 1" tube....maybe 6-8" tall ..use vertical spacers welded in between the lower frame and the wall frame...this will stiffen the structure (truss) and give a positive restraint so that your accessories won't fall off the rear of the shelf when sliding it home.....

Cheers Ross
 








 
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