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Early FP2 spindle brake

AlfaGTA

Diamond
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Location
Benicia California USA
Came across some old photos of my home FP2 this week, and although this has been posted years back and since the original photos are no longer view able,thought it might be fun to re-visit this......

Subject is the addition of a spindle brake for an FP2. Now the later machines have and electric brake on the main drive motor, the early (gen 1) machines have no such
setup. Now i could have added an electric setup i suppose, but i an more mechanically inclined, so i opted to build a full (almost) mechanical brake.

So here is how it all works.....The base for the setup lies in the actuator bracket....Basically i copied the original Deckel rapid /coolant switch mounting. Originally the factory
fit a shaft attached to a lever that operated a rod that applied pressure to the rapid clutch....

My setup employs that same setup fro the rapid lever, but i go a bit further in adding a second shaft (telescoping shaft within a shaft setup) , and this second shaft operates the brake....
That second shaft works a cam that operates a micro switch and is spring loaded to return the lever to its center position......Further the second shaft connects to a lever that operates the brake mechanism...

Also retained is the original setup using a center knob which operates the in/out clutch to drive the coolant pump....

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Shafting made from pre-hard 4142 while the can (partially visible in the photo) was made from 17-4 PH and post heat treated....The housing carrying the spring is clearly seen as well as the three distinct
steps of the three shafts ( coolant, brake and rapid)


Following photo shows the general setup as installed on the machine....New shaft support bracket, operating rod for the rapid (angling down to the left) the operating lever for the coolant
(Just to the left of the bracket) and the round operating rod that operates the brake....(running up from the center toward the right ) Note the small rod ends on the rod to allow freedom for angular movement.

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Also note the window cut into the machine casting at the top of the operating rod.....

To have a brake , you need some sort of shoe to do the work....Here is a shot of the brake shoe (one of 2) being cut out on my FP4NC.....
Material is mild steel.

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Finished part, on holding fixture....(plate drilled and screws tapped into shoe through the plate)

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Shoes were then sent to an automotive brake relining shop (i know guys) and friction material bonded to the shows....
Photo of installed brake assembly.....Mounts to a cast aluminum intermediate plate (original Deckel)
Assembly includes an anchor pivot pin and a cam (flat blade) that operates (opens) the shoes

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To the left in the photo you can see the end of the lever that is attached to the cam that opens the shoes....The return springs for the assembly
The hole centered with the shoes, is where the main drive shaft passes through into the machine's spindle gearbox.
More to follow....
 
So to keep the relationships clear, here is the overall view of the assembly....Position of all the important pieces can be seen....
Levers for the rapid and brake can be seen...Made the brake lever longer and angled toward the rear of the machine, while the rapid is somewhat shorter and angled forward....

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Knob colors indicate function as well.....Clamp end of brake rod mimics the shape of the original rapid lever end....
Position of the cast intermediate plate as installed (original Deckel) Operating rod and lever shown as the drive pulley...

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Inside the pulley, i fit a steel liner that has a flange that is bolted through to secure the liner in place.. The bolt circle of the retaining bolts are visible (sorry no pictures of the inside liner, missed that step somehow)
Liner is the friction surface that the shows bear on when activated....

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Here is a shot of the operating lever for opening the brake shoes....Bronze bush fitted, assembled with taper pin....Opposite is the anchor for the fixed end of the brake shoe assembly...

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Additional shot of the setup with brake drum (drive pulley) removed.

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Finally, here is how the completed setup looks.......

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Operation has been flawless since fitting....Because the brake lever operates a flat cam, the lever can be moved either direction , forward or back to apply the brake....spring
returns it to center. The micro switch is wired through the stop circuit for the main drive motor so applying the brake shuts off the motor.....

Cheers Ross
 
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Maybe...but my target was to build a system that actually worked....... one that would be commensurate with the original machines build quality....
And for the third and final strike, the Austin parts are all built in imperial increments....definitely not acceptable on a German machine....Figured you would know that....

Cheers Ross
 
Hi all,

Touche Ross,

That`s a very nice conversion I must say!

You seem to have ignored the fact that the first BMW car was an Austin Seven Chummy that was built under licence from "Pa Austin" in 1928 and was christened the "Dixie" by the German company.

It`s rather puzzling that when I visited the BMW museum in Munich some years ago there was no mention of the British origin of the Dixie cars that were on display there! BMW eventually developed the Dixie into a six cylinder sports car and as they say "the rest is history".

The A7 wasn`t a Rolls Royce but it made motoring affordable for the masses.

Alan

Ps, You probably over engineered the braking system as extreme precision is not necessary, in fact, it can be a disadvantage!
 
Hi all,



You seem to have ignored the fact that the first BMW car was an Austin Seven Chummy that was built under licence from "Pa Austin" in 1928 and was christened the "Dixie" by the German company.

It`s rather puzzling that when I visited the BMW museum in Munich some years ago there was no mention of the British origin of the Dixie cars that were on display there! BMW eventually developed the Dixie into a six cylinder sports car and as they say "the rest is history".

The A7 wasn`t a Rolls Royce but it made motoring affordable for the masses.

Alan

Ps, You probably over engineered the braking system as extreme precision is not necessary, in fact, it can be a disadvantage!

Alan:
Lots of companies built "Crap" products....usually price driven , especially during their initial years...wondering what that has to do with the brake modification....
The Austin 7 might have brought motoring to the masses, that doesn't mean that their cars were of high quality or well built ,just affordable. England is a small country ...a car didn't have to do much or go too far, an easy life so to speak.....

As to suggesting Austin 7 parts...fine..But i think you seem to forget that here in the US there are virtually none...so as a potential source of parts , your suggestion is pretty ridiculous.....
In my mind, i would rather design and build a purpose specific system than muck about looking for and cobbling together a pile of junk that might sort of work, maybe....To me its a total waste of time, not my style.
That conversion, save the rod ends and micro switch all existed within steps of my machines in the stock rack.....

As to over engineered.....the proof is in the final (or pudding as they say) Seems about right as to design and precision,(just proper fits and allowances) as it has worked flawlessly since its first day, and continues to date....
But i would be pleased if you would kindly draw on your vast experience and tell me where you believe i "over did " it...maybe i could do better on the next version.

Cheers Ross
 
Ps, You probably over engineered the braking system as extreme precision is not necessary, in fact, it can be a disadvantage!

For all we know, Ross missed every dimension on his drawings by 0.01" :D. (I would not bet on that, however...) Over-engineering and extreme precision are different things. Good engineering tries to reduce the need for extreme precision.
 
Dang. Ross, now why'd you go and put those pics up again? I'd reassured myself when the previous ones were lost that I really didn't need to do this mod to my FP2. Now they're back, and I've saved em this time. Grrrr. :-)

Lucky7

And if you find your pics of the DRO install on your FP2 I can be even more annoyed at you... Again :-)
 
Dear Ross,

thanks for reposting this with the photos. I have read through your original posts about this modification several times. It's one of those things that is on my "to-do wish list" for my FP2, but has never come close enough to the top of the list to get started. But it did remind me of one question that I had.

Would it be possible (at least in principle) to do a design where you did not have another extra lever for the brake, but where instead the clutch lever ALSO acted as a brake lever, when pushed (from its central vertical resting point) towards the REAR of the machine?

Cheers,
Bruce
 
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thanks for reposting this with the photos. I have read through your original posts about this modification several times. It's one of those things that is on my "to-do wish list" for my FP2, but has never come close enough to the top of the list to get started. But it did make me thing of one question I had had.

Would it be possible (at least in principle) to do a design where you did not have another extra lever for the brake, but where instead the clutch lever ALSO acted as a brake lever, when pushed (from its central vertical resting point) towards the REAR of the machine?

Bruce

Seems like you should eat more fish, since you'd remember that not only is that design possible, but it was already done and discussed ;)
The brake was from Ross's idea, and I reduced the concept down to the "single lever" thing.
 
Alan:
Lots of companies built "Crap" products....usually price driven , especially during their initial years...wondering what that has to do with the brake modification....
The Austin 7 might have brought motoring to the masses, that doesn't mean that their cars were of high quality or well built ,just affordable. England is a small country ...a car didn't have to do much or go too far, an easy life so to speak.....Cheers Ross

Ross, I was surprised that you took my post so seriously as it was supposed to be a joke! When I initially saw the photos I was struck by the similarity of the brake configuration to the early Austin Seven. Your brake configuration originated in the automobile industry and was adopted by machine tool designers. It is a primitive cam operated leading and trailing brake shoe arrangement that would be correct for operation in both forward and reverse.

Looking further into your post, you will have upset a lot of proud Austin owners with your unfair and arrogant assessment of their cars. Along with the 2CV, the beetle, the mini and many others, the Austin 7 has been declared a design Icon by a team of international experts that know what they are talking about!

The Austin 7 brakes were capable of stopping it at speeds of up to 50 MPH which is a heck of a lot more kinetic energy that would be required to be dissipated in order stop your puny FP2 spindle! In fact, your choice of brake is exactly the same as the Austin 7!

I have to take you to task over your comment about England being a small country! Of course it is compared to the USA but England is the place where the industrial revolution began which copied by the USA enabled it to become what it is now.

Also you mentioned German precision as though it was some kind of touchstone, again it was dear old England that set precision and accuracy on the path that gave us today. The Swiss and the Germans just copied our technology!

Regarding my comments about over engineering, this was prompted by the fact that you had machined the brake shoes from solid mild steel rather than aluminium which can disperse the heat of braking more quickly. I haven`t seen the brake drum so can`t comment on that.

Braking develops a lot of heat due to friction and your brake is located in an enclosed space with little ventilation, have you tried stopping the spindle repeatedly over a long period of time and if so, does the brake fade?

That being said, you retro fitted the brake probably out of interest rather than necessity and that is your prerogative, it`s when you put your ideas into the public domaine, comments can be made, either positive or negative, that`s the way of the world.

Alan
 
T:
Thanks for providing that link to the earlier posting...Searched for posting on the brake before i posted the current thread but came up blank...guess my searching technique needs some work....Surprised that the photos work.

However your work does not show for me....hoping you can perhaps as Bruce suggests attach them to this thread...
Believe you did the conversion on an FP3....Was under the impression that all the FP3's were fitted with an electric brake on the drive motor.....Can you educate me on this?
Cheers Ross
 
Ross

None of the two earlier FP3's I've had the pleasure to own had an electric brake.

As for the pictures, here's what I found.
I hope they give you a good idea enough of the way the thing works.

Basically, the original lever is mounted on a new a shaft that now actuate two linkages : the original one for the rapids, and an new one for the drum brake. (the brake arrangement is quite the same as Ross's but I was lucky enough not to have to machine my own brake shoes ! As a side note, I love it when Ross refers to that FP2 brake saga as "a little job"...).

A slot is cut at the end of both linkages and each linkage is connected to the shaft via its own pin or stud.
The pins are located at say 3 o'clock fo the brake pin, and 6 o'clock for the rapids one (the lever beeing at twelve).

So for exemple if you pull the lever backward, the pin of the rapids linkage will gently slide in its slot, leaving the linkage position unchanged, but at the same time, will also pull the brake linkage. And vice versa.
Both linkages are spring loaded, and with a bit of tweaking, will define a good neutral position for the lever.

A flat is cut on the shaft the lever attaches to, so as to actuate a micro-switch that shuts the spindle motor off just before the braking action.

Frein de broche FP3 (1).jpgFrein de broche FP3 (4).jpgFrein de broche FP3 (2).jpgDeckel FP3 - Frein de broche  (2).jpg
 
T, Ross, I like both of your solutions. I am in favor of modifying machinery "away from the original" when it improves the functionality and is done well, maintaining the spirit and quality of the original. Both of you have achieved this. Thanks for sharing. Cheers, Bruce
 
Also you mentioned German precision as though it was some kind of touchstone, again it was dear old England that set precision and accuracy on the path that gave us today. The Swiss and the Germans just copied our technology!
Alan

Kind of ironic you would post that on this forum where we discuss Germanic machines. The Alexander milling machine is a copy of the Deckel and the Myford grinder is derived from a Studer!

Not sure why you feel the need to be defensive, it's no stretch to say the Swiss and Germans have outperformed (out-engineered and out-worked) England and the UK in pretty much every industrial and economic metric since WW2. I've never heard anyone in the states refer to "superior British engineering or build quality" about anything- British cars and their poor reliability is a standing joke here.
 








 
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