FP1 - changing oil, what's the trick on speed gearbox?

Ok, I was able to drain the feed gearbox on the operator side of the machine (lower one), filled it with kerosene and ran it for about 5-10 minutes feeding back and forth. flushed that and filled it with oil and all is well.

On the other side is the speed gearbox (upper), and the large allen screw can be undone and a rod pulls out with a hole to allow the oil to drain...but for the ilfe of me, the oil doesn't want to go in the fill port. There are two bolts, and neither one wants to allow oil into the tank very fast. Is there some secret? Seems I'm spilling more down the size of the machine than is going inside...at this rate I don't think I'll have enough oil with a gallon, so I stopped and thought I would ask.

Does this just require a lot of patience ? (and a lot of oil ?)

Cheers,
Alan

I'm a bit of a Luddite so beware- I pull the vertical head and fill by pouring past/over the top gear.


Glug glug glug.

Trboatworks said:

I pull the vertical head and fill by pouring past/over the top gear.

Click to expand...

I have done both. From the top is easiest, especially when there is no vertical head installed.

When filling through the little hole on the door side, I jam a plastic tube in there, connect the other end to a funnel, and let gravity do it's thing....

Trboatworks said:

I'm a bit of a Luddite so beware- I pull the vertical head and fill by pouring past/over the top gear.


Glug glug glug.

Click to expand...

Thomas,

That's the spindle oil, is that all connected to the top ?

Seems the sight on the front of the machine is for that oil. But there's another site on the left side of the machine, and another on the lower right inside the coolant pump cover. 3 different oil pockets, as the manual refers to them.

The top is for the spindle bath, isn't it?

Cheers,
Alan

suction gun

traditional-tools said:

Ok, I was able to drain the feed gearbox on the operator side of the machine (lower one), filled it with kerosene and ran it for about 5-10 minutes feeding back and forth. flushed that and filled it with oil and all is well.

On the other side is the speed gearbox (upper), and the large allen screw can be undone and a rod pulls out with a hole to allow the oil to drain...but for the ilfe of me, the oil doesn't want to go in the fill port. There are two bolts, and neither one wants to allow oil into the tank very fast. Is there some secret? Seems I'm spilling more down the size of the machine than is going inside...at this rate I don't think I'll have enough oil with a gallon, so I stopped and thought I would ask.

Does this just require a lot of patience ? (and a lot of oil ?)

Cheers,
Alan

Click to expand...

.
they sell a oil suction gun. looks like 1/2 a grease gun. basically a cylinder and plunger operated by hand with plastic tubing to use suction for getting oil out and it you suck if full of good oil you can push it back into a gear box hole. usually in the $20 range

Hi Alan,

traditional-tools said:

That's the spindle oil, is that all connected to the top ? Seems the sight on the front of the machine is for that oil. But there's another site on the left side of the machine, and another on the lower right inside the coolant pump cover. 3 different oil pockets, as the manual refers to them. The top is for the spindle bath, isn't it?

Click to expand...

The oil from the spindle gearbox is carried up by the gears, and distributed by the long gear beneath the horizontal head. It drips back down into the spindle gearbox sump. So the bottom line is, any oil you pour into the horizontal head (== ram == headstock) just drains back to the spindle gearbox. Hence this is a practical fill method, if no vertical head is installed or if it is easy to remove.

Cheers,
Bruce

DMF_TomB said:

they sell a oil suction gun. looks like 1/2 a grease gun. basically a cylinder and plunger operated by hand with plastic tubing to use suction for getting oil out and it you suck if full of good oil you can push it back into a gear box hole. usually in the $20 range

Click to expand...

Actually I do have one, but those will not fit over the fill hole listed in the manual.

ballen said:

The oil from the spindle gearbox is carried up by the gears, and distributed by the long gear beneath the horizontal head. It drips back down into the spindle gearbox sump. So the bottom line is, any oil you pour into the horizontal head (== ram == headstock) just drains back to the spindle gearbox. Hence this is a practical fill method, if no vertical head is installed or if it is easy to remove.

Click to expand...

I will look at this again today. I was under the impression there was 2 different oil pockets but from what you and Thomas are saying the oil put into the top will fill that. I guess that makes sense as there is no drain pictured in the manual.

I will look at this more today.

Cheers,
Alan

Alan- the middle sump transfer oil to the top via adhesion to the gears.

Trboatworks said:

Alan- the middle sump transfer oil to the top via adhesion to the gears.

Click to expand...

Thomas,

The manual is a bit confusing in regard to the oil, and that one section on the spindle oil.

AFAICT, Vactra #4 (Med/Heavy) is used for the top and lower sumps, since it states Bearing Oil 4.5deg, and on the Table of Lubricants it has the Vactra #4 (Med/Heavy) for that, and specific for the spindle gears.

In the manual all the other oil for the accessories is DTE Med/Heavy, which they list as spindle oil. That would be so for the vertical head, index attachment, slotting head, dividing table, spiral, etc...

Best I can tell the spindle seems to get it's lubrication from the upper sump which is marked as the Vactra Med/Heavy 4.5deg.

The question is, does the DTE Med/Heavy go anywhere else?

Thanks for helping me work through this.

Cheers,
Alan

I fill the bottom (feed gear) and middle ( change gear) sumps with DTE Med/Heavy.
The gear oil is carried up from the middle sump to the gear which drives the horizontal spindle, the gear which drives the vertical head, and the plain bearing (on my era machine) horizontal spindle itself.


That sight window you see on front left of machine above table is in fact an expression of the oil being carried up to that part of the machine.
That gear oil also lubes the ways on top via wicks.

The vertical head spindle is independently lubed- either grease or spindle oil depending on date of manufacture.

Trboatworks said:

I fill the bottom (feed gear) and middle ( change gear) sumps with DTE Med/Heavy.
The gear oil is carried up from the middle sump to the gear which drives the horizontal spindle, the gear which drives the vertical head, and the plain bearing horizontal spindle itself.

Click to expand...

I need to understand this better, the numbers in the manual point to what looks like Mobile Vactra Med/Heavy for those sumps. This is kind of odd, since I think of Vactra as being way oil for sliding surfaces.

Trboatworks said:

That sight window you see on front left of machine above table is in fact an expression of the oil being carried up to that part of the machine.

Click to expand...

So, it seems the bottom sight is to measure how much oil you put into it, then the top sight is to let you know that oil is circulating through there? Is that the idea?

My top sight is pretty dirty, as-is the middle sight just below the speed leavers, but the other side of the machine.

Trboatworks said:

That gear oil also lubes the ways on top via wicks.

Click to expand...

In that regards way oil makes sense if that is fed from the upper gear sump.

Sounds like DTE Med/Heavy should go in the upper sump (removing vert head and pouring in). This is what I put in there last time. I may have overfilled it in not understanding how the system worked. But this also means I put the wrong oil in the lower sump, if it gets DTE Med/Heavy also...I was going by numbers on the table of lubricants on the wrench DVD.

At least I know everything had oil in it, and now just need to make sure all the right oil is in the right places.

Trboatworks said:

The vertical head spindle is independently lubed- either grease or spindle oil depending on date of manufacture.

Click to expand...

I will check that, I think my serial number is 33398 or something like that, on the head. It's not the same as my machine, the heads were mixed up by the seller/auctioneer.

Here's a link the table of lubrication, in case you don't have the wrench DVD, but I'm pretty certain you do. Anyway, look at the numbers for the Bearing Oil, it says 4.5deg which is what it states for in the manual, for both sumps.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18576273/Table of Lubricants (English).pdf

What Deckel calls spindle oil, is that the oil for the feed screws? Used in the oil pump cans? Maybe my confusion is in thinking the DTE was used for the accessories, where everything is Vactra #4 except the screws for the feeds.

EDIT: Ross, if you see this, would appreciate your input here.

Sometimes there is something lost in the translation, maybe this is the case here with German and English? The English manual is not entirely clear as a bell to me.

EDIT: top does in fact go to upper sump drain, I just ran kerosene through the top section for about 5 minutes at 750 rpm. One thing I did get for my mill is the top cover, so I took the vertical head off for the time being. What went in clear came out brown, but smelling like kerosene...lol

Cheers,
Alan

Oh dear- I am no expert Alan.
I just read up on the lube question here, compared it to the manual recommendations and came up with this as being a good option off the shelf as it were in the US:



There is no question though that the upper section of the mill is splash/transfer lubed from the mid sump.

You are on the right track- plenty of bronze in that gear box- so no EP additives- machine lube not auto...
I use Vactra #4 for the table ways and on screws- minding more to keep things clean/oiled than fussing with type- again a Luddite.....

I did tear down the vertical spindle and recommend it as a service measure in this old of a machine.
My spindle needle bearings were dry and contaminated with fine debris.

I cleaned everything up and used Kluber grease to lube.

Trboatworks said:

View attachment 118605

Click to expand...

I have the same, as well as Vactra #4.

Trboatworks said:

You are on the right track- plenty of bronze in that gear box- so no EP additives- machine lube not auto...
I use Vactra #4 for the table ways and on screws- minding more to keep things clean/oiled than fussing with type- again a Luddite.....

Click to expand...

Ok, maybe I had it reversed...at least that sounds reverse of what I thought in reading the manual.

I am not sure but suspect grease could have been put in the X table screw, it seems a little tighter than I would expect, and have read about bozos doing that in the past. I'm not sure how I can test that, or if I can run kerosene through the screw and/or if that would clean it up...that's something I need to look into. Just seems the table screw on the X especially is a bit tighter than I would expect.

Trboatworks said:

I did tear down the vertical spindle and recommend it as a service measure in this old of a machine.
My spindle needle bearings were dry and contaminated with fine debris.

I cleaned everything up and used Kluber grease to lube.

Click to expand...

That is in the plans for this machine, most certainly. My motor bearings DEFINITELY need to be replaced.

traditional-tools said:

Just seems the table screw on the X especially is a bit tighter than I would expect.

Click to expand...

Mind that the table locks are free- the X and Z are to left of gear shift lever- lower and behind table.

traditional-tools said:

Ok, maybe I had it reversed...at least that sounds reverse of what I thought in reading the manual.

Click to expand...

I did more searching and found an old thread where Brian mentioned as you, using DTE Heavy/Med in both sumps and Vactra #4 for the table ways.

I think the table screw may get Kubler grease.

I am not sure but suspect grease could have been put in the X oil, it seems a little tighter than I would expect, and have read about bozos doing that in the past. I'm not sure how I can test that, or if I can run kerosene through the screw and/or if that would clean it up (possibly use air to make sure they are clean)...that's something I need to look into. Just seems the table screw on the X especially is a bit tighter than I would expect.

Trboatworks said:

Mind that the table locks are free- the X and Z are to left of gear shift lever- lower and behind table.

Click to expand...

Those are definitely free. Everything is pretty dirty still, aside from the front of the vertical mount and table I cleaned, and some other basic surfaces. The more I work with it the more grime/grease I see...and before I get crazy with it, I want to make sure everything is being lubricated properly.

I see the wick in the top, over to the side of the spindle. I'm not sure I'm getting oil to the way, and have oiled manually. Some areas are wet. but not the way. Getting the vertical mount off to completely clean the X/Z looks like fun, but if I understand correctly the Z ways are lubricated from that wick in the top sump?

Ok, I just see now in the Table of Lubrication I linked to above, it is marked for "Gun" for the Vactra #4, "Oil Can" for the spindle oil, and Gun for the grease fittings. This must mean there is no sump for the Vactra, it's all manual oil of the screws and ways with the oil gun. I am on my way to getting the little piggie greased up so she doesn't squeal... hehehe

Hi Alan,

traditional-tools said:

I am not sure but suspect grease could have been put in the X table screw, it seems a little tighter than I would expect, and have read about bozos doing that in the past. I'm not sure how I can test that, or if I can run kerosene through the screw and/or if that would clean it up...that's something I need to look into. Just seems the table screw on the X especially is a bit tighter than I would expect.

Click to expand...

If someone had pumped grease into the oil nipple for the X table screw, the first place the grease would go would be behind the oil sight glass on the door side. It would fill up and block the passage behind that oil sight glass. SO, when you pump oil into that oil nipple, if you can see oil moving or flowing behind that sight glass, then no grease has been used on that lubrication point. On the other hand, if the sight glass is blocked with grease, you'll need to take off the support and clean out the oil passages (:-(.

My motor bearings DEFINITELY need to be replaced.

Click to expand...

I'm confused, I thought that you ran the motor without the belt attached and it was smooth. I think you would have heard bad motor bearings at that time.

Cheers,
Bruce

ballen said:

If someone had pumped grease into the oil nipple for the X table screw, the first place the grease would go would be behind the oil sight glass on the door side. It would fill up and block the passage behind that oil sight glass. SO, when you pump oil into that oil nipple, if you can see oil moving or flowing behind that sight glass, then no grease has been used on that lubrication point. On the other hand, if the sight glass is blocked with grease, you'll need to take off the support and clean out the oil passages (:-(.

Click to expand...

I will check that...I think I understand what goes where now...both sumps for the speed and feed gears get DTE Heavy/Medium. All oil nipples get Vactra from the Oil Gun. Grease nipples get the Grease Gun with the tan grease (I think I have Kluber).

The only real issue is understanding which nipples are oil and which are grease.

On my Nichols they put oil and grease nipples next to each other...no wonder people would mix up and put grease in them.

ballen said:

I'm confused, I thought that you ran the motor without the belt attached and it was smooth. I think you would have heard bad motor bearings at that time.

Click to expand...

Yes, but that video wasn't too long. I've run the mill for up to 10-15 minutes at a crack while milling, and there is definitely noise coming from the motor periodically. It really needs to be taken off and opened up. Same with the bearings on the pulley shaft. Machine doesn't sound too bad, and sometimes it sounds pretty good when the motor is not making noise. Drawbar on the horizontal makes some noise occasionally also.

I will need to go read your thread on the rebuilding the x axis (vertical mount). That said, I have a few things I need to look at...

Hi Alan

You may want to check the primary shaft bearings which could the source of the noise you hear with the belt attached to the motor. I remember when I restored my machine the outer bearing had a little slack, probably due to an over tightened V-Belt and was replaced.

It’s easy to replace these bearings with a specialised puller, no need to remove the gears or shaft assembly only the oil seals.

Noise from the horizontal draw bar can be solved by making a simple MK4 plug and keep it attached to the head, bonus is it keeps the taper clean from swarf and fluid.

I don't think there are any grease nipples on an FP1 they are all oil, even the handwheels I pump with oil.
With regard to the main carriage nipple, if someone has used grease it's bad news and could require a complete strip down to clean out the oil galleries and slide way grooves. If it new grease you may be lucky and be able to wash it out with a de-greaser fluid.

This single oiling point feeds everything in the carriage assembly. You should be able to pump oil into this nipple until it fills all the internal galleries, it then fills the sight glass which has a small hole in it. You know when there is enough oil in the system as it squirts out the small hole in the sight glass.

Cheers Adrian.

adrian said:

This single oiling point feeds everything in the carriage assembly. You should be able to pump oil into this nipple until it fills all the internal galleries, it then fills the sight glass which has a small hole in it. You know when there is enough oil in the system as it squirts out the small hole in the sight glass.

Click to expand...

If the system has had grease pumped in, then when you pump in oil, what will squirt out of the small hole in the sight glass will be a grease worm. This is what it looks like:

View attachment 95327

see this post for details.

Alan, if you have an air compressor, you might want to try the following: remove the oil nipples and inject some compressed air. If there is grease in the system, it will come squirting out from various places.


Cheers,
Bruce

I don't want to hijack this thread but I am having a similar problem and didn't want to start another thread on the same topic.

I have recently gotten an FP1 which may be from 1950.s It has no dials , two lever for speed and gear lever for travel.
There is one sight glasss on the left of the machine and another sightglass on the front of the head. There seems to be nothing on the table.
The lower gears are not in a sump, i.e. there is no lower sump, so i wonder how these are lubricated. There is a feed to the bearings on these gears though. The pump for the coolant fluid is missing and the machine came with an external electric coolant pump.

I am unsure where the filling plug and draining plus is on the upper gearbox, i.e. speed gearbox. Is it on the left side.

From reading this thread, and others on the forum, it seems that my machine may be older or perhaps it has just been modified over the years.

Thanks for reading, would appreciate any help in how to lubricate this machine. Thanks