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FP1 Horizontal Arbor Complication

adh2000

Titanium
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Location
Waukesha, WI
Using my FP1 horizontal spindle. The Deckel arbors have a bearing surface at the outboard end that runs in the overarm support. The arbor I have to use for this particular application is not Deckel brand and does not have this bearing area, instead it has an internal 60 degree center drilled, I'm sure left over from when it was ground. Anyway I would like to run a live center in this center drilled outboard end of the arbor. Unfortunately there's really no provision on the outboard support for a live center. I could grind a 60 degree point on a piece of drill rod but there would be no way to generate any thrust to keep the point in the arbor. Clear as mud? Anyone dealt with this?
 
Using my FP1 horizontal spindle. The Deckel arbors have a bearing surface at the outboard end that runs in the overarm support. The arbor I have to use for this particular application is not Deckel brand and does not have this bearing area, instead it has an internal 60 degree center drilled, I'm sure left over from when it was ground. Anyway I would like to run a live center in this center drilled outboard end of the arbor. Unfortunately there's really no provision on the outboard support for a live center. I could grind a 60 degree point on a piece of drill rod but there would be no way to generate any thrust to keep the point in the arbor. Clear as mud? Anyone dealt with this?

Not necessarily a manufacturing artifact at all. One of my mills does have a 60-degree dead center on its overarm. Tiny Burke #4 AKA B-100-4. #9 B&S spindle taper.

Normally, all you really need to do is put a collar ON the arbor that fits the bearing in the overarm support, move the arm inward a tad to mate with it. See to lube.

No thrust required at that end. Drawbar's job to do the rest.

Hardened and ground recommended. Majority of ordinary spacers usually are. Not all fit a bearing.
 
Yes you could use a death center
Also if the bearing area has a smaller OD as the ID of the support you could make a bushing
If its VV you can make a extension on the overarm support with a bore fitting the arbor

Peter
 
Yes you could use a death center

Peter

Wow, the death center, sounds harsh I'll keep that as a last resort.

The collar on the arbor idea seems the standard method for larger machines, I've got a couple that do that. But Deckel had to be different, they've turned down the end of the arbor outboard from the nut to something like 15mm. The bearing ID of course matches that so no way to slide the outboard support over the arbor.

This all came about because I needed a 27mm arbor. Why oh why do gear and sprocket cutters seem to want to come with 27mm bore hole? 27mm horizontal mill arbors are scarce as hens teeth. How is one supposed to use these things? I eventually was able to order a 27mm arbor out of China with an MT4 shank. After adding the sleeve to take it to SK40 and changing out the drawbar I was able to get it on the Deckel. Working as is, but form cutters like to chatter anyway. An outboard support could boost productivity.
 
AFAIK Deckel never offered anything like that, I'm guessing you are using #40 tooling because I haven't had any luck finding factory fractional arbors yet.
If you do modify something as you say and it needs some pressure to work properly maybe some threaded areas on the center and nuts to act as an adjustment would fit the bill. I'm talking about a complete non-standard, shop made/modified center with a straight shank that fits the factory bushing?
NO, I haven't any experience dealing with this situation so take what I offer at face value.
Dan

On Edit,
Seen you were replying while I was, 27mm 4 Morse arbor.
 
Are the cutters actually marked 27mm?
Pretty close to 1 1/16"

Anyhow, there are machines that as Monarchist points out that use 60* centers on the outboard end to support arbors.

In your setup the issue is locating and holding the center....
Would think that a center made from drill rod and turned to be a light push fit in the overarm support bushing would be fine....
Grind a flat along the length of the center,
Make a collar that fits the OD of the center and fit a cross drilled set screw.....
On the collar add a leg that would go down the overarm support face (inside face) and hook over the edge to prevent rotation.

Could also just add a small screw (Allen head )drilled and tapped into the face of the overarm to stop rotation but some might find this problematic as it is not original.

Anyhow, bias the center to the arbor and secure using the collar with the clamp screw against the flat on the center. Be sure to apply a good center (high pressure) lube to the contact point of the center and the arbor.
Don't need big tension here on the center.....Just good contact.

Cheers Ross
 
Wow, the death center, sounds harsh I'll keep that as a last resort.

The collar on the arbor idea seems the standard method for larger machines, I've got a couple that do that. But Deckel had to be different, they've turned down the end of the arbor outboard from the nut to something like 15mm. The bearing ID of course matches that so no way to slide the outboard support over the arbor.

This all came about because I needed a 27mm arbor. Why oh why do gear and sprocket cutters seem to want to come with 27mm bore hole? 27mm horizontal mill arbors are scarce as hens teeth. How is one supposed to use these things? I eventually was able to order a 27mm arbor out of China with an MT4 shank. After adding the sleeve to take it to SK40 and changing out the drawbar I was able to get it on the Deckel. Working as is, but form cutters like to chatter anyway. An outboard support could boost productivity.

So you needed a Deckel 27mm Iso 40 hor arbor. Howmany ???
did not you see that pile of hor arbors when you visited me ???

Peter
 
So you needed a Deckel 27mm Iso 40 hor arbor. Howmany ???
did not you see that pile of hor arbors when you visited me ???

Peter

I probably didn't pay any attention. I have quite a few arbors but of course they are in 1/8 inch increments like 3/4, 7/8, 1, 1 1/8, and 1 1/4. Cutters with metric bore are not common here. As mentioned 27mm is very close to 1 1/16 but that's not common at all so no help there. Do you have an actual Deckel 27mm arbor? Not that I care about who made it but it needs to have the reduced end to fit the Deckel overarm. I doubt you have that, but maybe.

Alan
 
Do you have an actual Deckel 27mm arbor? Not that I care about who made it but it needs to have the reduced end to fit the Deckel overarm. I doubt you have that, but maybe.

Alan

Really? I'd bet that if Peter does NOT have it, then Deckel actually DIDN'T ever make it.

:D
 
Dang, I did not find those arbors, searched German ebay too but probably something like 27mm rather than D27. Who knew? As usual should have come here first. Is 27mm a common Euro size? Too bad the English didn't successfully invade the continent, then we could all use a proper fractional measurement system instead of that base 10 thing whatever you call it.

So how much does Peter want for a 27mm arbor and when can it be here? And while we're at it what is the outboard bearing surface diameter so I can check my support and make sure it fits.

Alan
 
Actually I'm surprised that it is working at all without some support?
I heard a story once about an accident that happened on a big Cinncinnatti horizontal mill, of coarse those arbors were 3' long so a bit different. The operator decided to turn the machine on and check to see if the arbor looked straight before setting up all the cutters for the gang mill job, we ran three shifts and a lot of the tooling was questionable. Not thinking he hit the go button and had it in top gear, 2,000 or 2,500 RPM. In a split second that arbor whipped and snapped off flush with the #50 taper and took off across the shop. Was told it hit the ceiling that was about 50' up and landed about 300' away, hard to believe it didn't hit anyone on its trip.
Know a guy personally that ruined a late model Mazak turning center and another guy that had an engine lathe come off the floor in his shop running unsupported bar stock. The guy that messed the Mazak up lost his job before he could verify if that machine was repairable but he said it broke the head stock casting where it bolted to the bed. Sure seems like a hard way to learn a lesson!
Dan
 
Standard diameters for Deckel metric arbors are 13, 16, 22, 27, 32 and 40mm. I am pretty sure that the standard outboard bearing diameter is 17mm but can't easily check this today. Maybe someone else here can say.
 
Standard diameters for Deckel metric arbors are 13, 16, 22, 27, 32 and 40mm. I am pretty sure that the standard outboard bearing diameter is 17mm but can't easily check this today. Maybe someone else here can say.

Interesting. Why those numbers? Why not 15, 20, 25, 30, and so on?
 
Not possible. You'd grind off the thread.

Curious, now, as to why this is some sort of "show stopper"?

I thought you ALSO owned a LATHE?

More than a few solutions to this challenge exist.

Pick one. Implement, do not agonize. You are making OTHERS tired over "small shit".

:)
 
Here I have some
At least 4 are 27 mm
I can sell you one full of bushings for €75
I normaly ship with national postal services Costs are €25 or €35 depending on weight
To the USA I don`t know how long it takes
If you have a Fedex or other account you can also order them to pick it up here

Peter

PS I also found some imperial ones 1" diam

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