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Thread: FP1 Oil or Grease for Spindles
07-14-2005, 07:53 PM #1
I've noticed that your Deckel fp1 spindles are very similar looking arangement (not the drive but the spindle bearing enclosure) as my Fritz.
On My Fritz universal head are two grease nipples/zerks, one for the top spindle bearing one for the bottom.
PLUS a chamber with a bolted lid in the middle to grease the pinions.
Now everywhere else on the machine are domed headed oiler nipples/zerks.
but the head bearings are definatly grease nipples/zerks. (Flats on the heads of the zerks and it is impossible to make the oil gun overcom the pressure of the ball valve)
Is it safe to assume that these are ment to be this way.......or have they been swapped and do they really need to be oiler nipples/zerks ?
1.What are they on your Deckel heads... oil or grease ?
2.I dont want ..because of expence, to go down the kluber grease road.......I thought perhaps normal high speed spindle grease .because this is not a deckel..(read multi thousand dollar machine)....and I think I can, well get-away with it.
Max spindle speed 2000 rpm.
What is an equivelent cheap grease to use ?
Is there any particular grade to look out for ?
All the best.mark
07-18-2005, 07:58 AM #2
I have just overhauled my FP1 and used Rocol grease for the spindle bearings.
They make a product called Saphire Premier which is a low friction PTFE type grease suitable for needle rollers.
Its not cheap at £14 a 380grm tub but it does the job ok.
07-19-2005, 12:04 PM #3
I will just go with what I've been able to get cheap.
That is lithium complex grease. £1.80 for a 400 gram cartridge
will keep feeling the bearings to see if they are making any real heat.....if they do ..it's out with it and in with the rocal.
all the best.mark
07-19-2005, 01:19 PM #4
As far as i know all the older Deckel's use grease lubrication for their spindles. You are correct about the Kluber. It is expensieve , but in the long run the cost is relatively low compaired to the cost of spindle bearings and the time to do a spindle overhaul a second or third time even for a home machine. I can't give any advise on the type of lube other than the Kluber (only thing reccomended by the factory for a Deckel spindle), but i have some other thoughts: first i would not use the grease fittings to lube the spindle. Most machines today with a proper lube will run literally for years with the spindle packed once when new. The addition of grease nipples if indeed they feed grease to the spindle bearings will only cause trouble (IMHO). This is old thinking. Much like the first application of roller bearings to the axles of rail cars. the first series of roller bearings on axles had grease fittings to lube the bearings. They were lubed at service intervals and it was found after some time that the greasing of the bearings was leading to premature bearing falure. The external fittings added the possibility of dirt getting into the bearing as well as over greasing the bearings, both conditions are bad for the life of the units. The railroads started using sealed, greased once at assembly bearing units and their life went up. The same conditions exist on your mill. I would plug the grease nipple holes and grease the spindle bearings and assemble it. Being careful to keep everything spotless and use a quality synthetic lube from a new fresh opened clean container. Contaminants like dust, cigarette smoke fingrprints all can cause trouble not to mention stray dirt that gets into an open tin of grease sitting on a shelf every time it is opened.
Don't be too eagar to over fill your bearings. A fill of about 25% of the space avaliable for greaes should be good for a spindle. Too much grease and you run the risk of overheating the bearings.
I suspect that even on your fritz the bearings were made to a very high standard , and with proper care they should last for years. The spindle is the heart of the machine and poor lube or poor bearings can cause accuracy and finish trouble.
07-19-2005, 01:48 PM #5
This UK ebay seller (and forum member?) says he should have some Super Tel in by now... 50g for £16.95...
Having said that, my old FP1 uses oil not grease for the spindles. The FP1s changed over from a simple hydrodynamic oil bearing to needle rollers at some point, and it's the needle rollers which need the grease. Older journal bearings FP1s use spindle oil (some grade of Shell Tellus IIRC, it'll be in an old thread somewhere). So if Fritz isn't needle-rollered, it may be oil he needs after all...
Incidentally, have you seen this other Fritz ?
07-19-2005, 02:25 PM #6
I dont know what sort of bearings it has in it.
to find out would entail stripping the head down.
stripping the head down may mean i run the risk of buggering something up .
I have no exploded diagram of it.
so I dont know what to expect.
there may be torque settings and preloads to deal with.
why ruin a machine by pulling it apart.
the only pulling apart I've done so far is to repair a bearing on the motor.
I hate smacking bearings into place or spindle shafts...no matter how carefull you are ....you are taking some sort of risk.
especially when everythings made of cast iron...may as well be bakerlite .....because it has the same properties ....busts as soon as you look at it.
I will just take it one step at a time ..do some test cuts .......and follow my instincts.
BTW .....think that fritz on lathes.co.uk is the same as Alisters
all the best.mark
07-19-2005, 04:44 PM #7
Had a quick look.
and have the feeling that it's loose balls and races....cant be sure.
and the top races for each one are not contained ...so any excess grease you pump in comes out into the central chamber that contains the beval drive gears. this chamber is accessible via a cover.
all the best.mark
07-20-2005, 01:01 AM #8
I finally got around to taking my FP1's vertical spindle apart this last weekend. The nut on the drawbar was pretty stuck, the taper pin was very bent, and I'd been putting off taking it off for fear of buggering the threads, but finally decided that it was better to know what was inside my spindle and risk having to fix the drawbar than let it go any longer.
It was a good decision. I found that the ball bearings that the gear runs in were loose and rough, and the grease in the needle bearings of the spindle itself was very dirty. Fortunately the spindle's needles and running surfaces are in very nice shape, and I'm confident that I caught it before damage was done. The ball thrust bearings at the top of the spindle assembly are in great shape as well.
I've got a tube of Kluber NBU 15 on the way ($21.45, shipped) and I'm going to pick up a pair of 6008 2RS bearings at a local bearing house tomorrow for around $50. The total cost of this rebuild will be about $75, pretty good for the peace of mind it will buy.
The main thing that I learned is that the oiling instructions I had picked up from the manual I have are only appropriate for the older plain-bearing spindles. Pouring oil into the key slot at the top of my spindle only washed the grease out of the ball bearings that support the gear shaft (and likely washed dirt in), and never wound up in the spindle at all. It's just as well, I suppose, since the needles need grease anyway. I always wondered how and where the oil I applied went, and the answer is: nowhere worthwhile.
From here on out, I intend to keep oil away from my spindle, other than to keep the sliding surfaces around the body of the spindle oily by wiping a bit of way oil on them directly. As to the grease, I'll just tear it down and re-do it on a schedule according to the use it gets.
And it's always a pleasure to work on a machine as finely crafted as the FP1.
07-20-2005, 11:00 AM #9
Klueber NBU 15 is great stuff for heavy pressure and I used to give a couple of 400g tubes away way with the 30 HP universal head CNC Laguns I sold and told them no warranty on the head unless they use that but, the second generation FP1 head requires Klueber Isoflex Super Tel for the needle bearings.
That 50 gram tube will last for ever as you only add a smidgen every 5000 hours.