The FP3NC rebuild continues (large file, lots of photos)

It has been some time since i posted about the rebuild of my FP3NC "flip head".
I have been working pretty steady since the last posting....mostly after work in the evenings i can work in an hour or two.

At last posting i was working at mating and aligning the vertical slide to the side ways of the freshly reground main vertical casting.
The object was to scrape the inside faces of the vertical casting "Boxes" to get the table to move as close to perpendicular to the vertical box as possible.
My gauging method is to fit a qualified granite square to the table face...align one face to indicate true with the table move "X". Then check at 90* on the granite
by moving the vertical slide along the box ways.

Some disclaimers...I have been questioned about my method..that is the main casting is laying down and presenting the box ways up. I know about the effects of gravity and
potential casting sag. Because i need to be able to fit the table and move it from side to side for one of the tests, i needed a way to keep the main casting from turning over
with the weight shift of the table move. I fitted support legs at one end of the main casting with bolts fit to the original base mounting locations. The opposite end of the main casting (about 2/3 the way up) is a second support or leg...this one is not secured to the casting, so some float is possible. For this work a true 3 point support is just not possible.
I have looked at the main casting using a qualified straight edge while on 3 points...and again supported in the manner i am using with the mounting feet bolted to one end...i can't detect any difference in the blued pattern either way.....

So i got the side of the boxes and the movement of the table pretty much where i it is as good as i dare...figuring i could easily make it worse trying to get the last tenth.
Currently as best i can test the vertical move is within .0001" of total error in 14" of movement, when the table move (X) clocks at 0.0000 (by my trusted tenths reading Interapid
indicator. (purchased new for this job)

Next part of the fitting puzzle was the floor or face of the main vertical box ways on the vertical slide. I was looking for two checks here.
First i wanted the face of the table when fit to the vertical slide to be flat (in the X plane) with both faces of the reground box ways on the face of the main casting.
Further i wanted the table face in the "Z" plane to be tipped somewhat in at the top compared to the bottom. This is because i believe the entire assembly when standing
upright will have a tendency to tip forward from clearance in the back keeper gibs on the vertical slide and and the clearance of the upper keeper gib on the back of "X" axis table....

The scraping of the box way presented some problems for me. Normally when scraping you alternate your scraping strokes at opposite angles. Creating a criss cross cutting action alternating the direction with each scraping cycle. This generates the spots that form the bearing surface.
However working with the scraper in a sort of trough it became impossible (at least for me) to get a good angled cut. the scraper was kept from being able to cut across the entire surface due to the overhang of sorts caused by the sides of casting.
I could get good cross pattern at the ends, but not very far up into the slot. As a result most of the cutting was done a relatively shallow angles...somewhat parallel with the long axis of the surface. The resulting pattern on the surface tended to have somewhat longer islands or spots.

In my shop lifting is done (until i get my crane finish) using an electric hoist slung from a central beam across the shop.
I needed a better way to manipulate the vertical casting between marking off the reground ways and scraping.
What i came up with is a sort of roll over fixture.
Mounted to the sides of the vertical casting with plates at a point where the casting balanced. There are pivots connected to a cross frame that allows rolling the casting over with almost no effort.



Here is the fixture and the vertical casting in position to take a print. Blue applied to the box way face and the casting lowered to make contact.
Additional benefit here is the ease of setting the casting down on the way face....because the vertical slide can be tipped, it is easy to tip one end to make contact and slip into alignment
without using the movement (kind of rapid for this) of the crane. Once the parts are aligned and started then the crane is used t complete the down move....



Here the vertical slide has been rolled over and the "print" can be seen.
To do the scraping on the marked surface, i place a moving blanket over the main casting face then a piece of plywood on top of that.
Then the vertical slide is lowered to the ply...Makes a nice bench where the scraping can be done and the only action to do a cycle is lifting the vertical slide......

Here you can see the casting set down ready to be scraped...
Non marked area in the center is by design....I scraped until i had a pattern on the entire surface, then made two additional cycles to relieve the center area...this
is done i am advised to prevent the parts from tipping and rocking as they wear.



Surface before relieving





More to follow.....
Cheers Ross

Gauging the table to the face of the box ways:

"X" axis table fitted with gib to the Vertical slide. Gib fitted to the vertical slide. Parallel mounted to the table face (facing up in this view)
parallel with the "X" move..this is simply a back stop to guide my surface gauge.

Qualified (AA) granite parallel set across the face of the box ways.




Surface gauge is moved across the table face and the indicator shows the out of flat...







Here is the setup to gauge the flatness of the table in the vertical....Indicator is mounted via mag base to a frame that i assemble to the main casting.
Used the same frame to gauge the side move on the granite square...(earlier post)

Granite parallel laid across the table face running what would be up and down in service....



Scraping more or less on either side of the troughs on the vertical slide will change the table flatness from side to side...top photos....
To change the flatness of the table in the vertical plane you scrape more or less the top/bottom of each of the troughs....


More to follow....
Cheers Ross

Beautiful work Ross... the machine will be worlds better than new once you are done. I'm amazed at the think time you have put into it to be able to easily move it around, working from a wheelchair, I constantly have to rig things up to lift or move heavier items, so I can really appreciate your efforts in that area.

Ok so i am getting things pretty well sorted out,
Have a tenth or less out of flat in the "X" plane.
I read .0013" out of flat on the table face with the bottom being out over the top...Not sure what a good number is here, i am guessing about this one and won't tell till
everything is back standing vertical with the weight of the "universal" table hanging off the front...I suspect i have not allowed enough.
The readings to being square , table move to vertical is within a tenth in 14"....The pattern on the box and side gib faces is OK....would perhaps like to spend a bit more time
with the face of the troughs....I am getting pretty ready to be finished with this part of the job!

Doing all this scraping had led to another issue i wish to address.....The tapered gib that fits to the side faces of the vertical box and controls the "rock" of the vertical slide as the table
moves from side to side is now in too far. By virtue of scraping the iron to iron slide faces opposite the gib i have created more space and the tapered gib goes almost all the way in...

I can gauge the amount needed by inserting feeler stock behind the gib...needs about .004" to be good.
So the solution is to replace the turcite on the gib face....

Here is my solution....

I have a piece of "precision plate" 1" thick and long enough to take the gib. The plate is mounted vertical and hedd with a vise. The machine is set to run horizontal.

A skim cut is taken using a fly cutter..Three holes are drilled through the plate. (6mm) . The gib has two oil feed holes drilled through (factory)
i drill an additional hole at the small end of the gib and tap all three to 6x1.0.



The original gib is mounted to the plate with bolts through the plate into the tapped holes.
This setup is mounted to my universal table, and i set the "C" to zero after making the surfacing cut.....





Back view...



Once mounted, i tram the face of the gib on the turcite...Indicating to get the face flat by rotating the table. Once flat i record the angle for future reference...




More yet to come...bored yet?
Cheers Ross

Once i have the tapered face running flat with the machines "X" axis and i record the angle of the table as read out on the control...i also
set a pair of tool makers buttons flat with the angle. This is a mechanical back up and i will use it later to gauge the finished Turcite thickness...



Here i am gauging the finished thickness of the Turcite. I will use this value when i replace the original with a thicker piece of material..I need to add about .004"


Since the buttons are adjusted to be flat with the angle the depth reading at each end will ,or should be the same.

Finally i use the machine to "map" the oil grooving, and i enter that data into my CAM program.
Last step here is to use a fly cutter to remove the ole Turcite...I use a coarse feed to give the surface some bite.



New Turcite is applied and the glue allowed to cure. Once the glue is hard the edges are trimmed and the gib returned to the plate...It is returned to the same angle
position as defined by the tool makers buttons and the "C" readout....

A surfacing cut made on the surface of the new Turcite to get close to the required thickness gauged again off the buttons....
Then the oil grooving is milled using the data from the original....



Finished gib, with oil grooving...note end drilling at the small end is covered by the Turcite.


Now i just need to finish scrape the part.....

Cheers Ross

I am impressed!

This is what is in Germany called "Wertarbeit", high-value labour.

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

Very nice as always, Ross !

Below was my personnal approach of the (almost) same problem :



In my case, the parts didn't have threaded holes I could have used.
To avoid putting stress on the part, I used two small mag plates I had on hand, along with two T-slot riser blocks to hold the part (FP3 backplates).
Bolt one riser on the table then clamp the part, put the second riser with its mag plate in contact with the part, turn on the mag plate, then bolt on the second riser on the table.
Then tram the part rotating the top plate of the universal (or is it "toolmaker" ?) table ;-)

Funny part of the game is that the backplates were the ones of the sole machine I had with enough travel to handle the task.
So I had first to machine cast-iron clamps I used to secure the knee against the column during the milling of the backplates.
Luckily once set, there was no need to use the z.


I did not use Turcite for the overhaul, but simply finish scraped the backplates after getting them flat and with the proper clearance. Worked like a charm !

T:
I will be doing a similar operation on the vertical back keeper plate gibs for this job.
By luck i have a friend just down the road with a very accurate Brown & Sharpe "Micromaster" surface grinder that can handle the job....
On the FP3NC the keepers are lined with Turcite....
Nice work....
On the gib work shown above..if i did not use the holes for screws, i would have made a clamp by milling a step that just fit the width of the gib in the plate mounted vertical.
Saw slit it deeper..perhaps half way through the plate up next to the top inside edge of the step. Then drilled and tapped for bolts along the top edge....slip the gib into the slot and
tighten the bolts...The gib would be gripped along the edge where the top edge pushed in by the bolt pressure and flex provided from the slit....
Screws were much easier......
I like the idea of using the magnetic chucks...Gotta have lots of tooling for that setup....Good call on making some temporary way keepers for the machine....

Cheers Ross

Ok I understand the pursuit of excellence and wanting to to the job right but in the case of the tapered gib. How come just making a full length 0.004" thick shim was not an option? If there is something obvious I am missing excuse my ignorance. I totally respect your meticulous and thorough approach to rebuilding this machine.

legoboy said:

Ok I understand the pursuit of excellence and wanting to to the job right but in the case of the tapered gib. How come just making a full length 0.004" thick shim was not an option? If there is something obvious I am missing excuse my ignorance. I totally respect your meticulous and thorough approach to rebuilding this machine.

Click to expand...

Think about how thin a .004 shim is and how flexible it is. The gib is a moving part, that is it moves with its assy. It is very likely that the shim would not be strong enough to overcome static friction and would probably try to wad up at the most in-opportune time.

Charles

CBlair said:

Think about how thin a .004 shim is and how flexible it is. The gib is a moving part, that is it moves with its assy. It is very likely that the shim would not be strong enough to overcome static friction and would probably try to wad up at the most in-opportune time.

Charles

Click to expand...

I wasn't thinking between the dynamic surfaces, I was thinking between where it bolts up to the machine. It would be completely captive would it not? Or maybe I am misunderstanding how the the gib attaches the machine.

lego:
A shim would have been fine...and i considered it. There are oil feed drillings through the gib that the shim would have to avoid. That and the part (gib)
lives vertically when assembled, so some method of fixing the shim would have been deemed a good idea i think.
I had the Turcite (actually i used Rulon) and the glue kit already because i had to re-line another way surface due to some of the original coming off.(earlier post)

Just decided that i did not want to go the shim route.... Entire process cost me about a day and some change.
Of course if scraping it in becomes a problem, then the shim idea will look like the smarter move.....I will let you know..
Cheers Ross

Thanks for the explanation Ross, I am enjoying watching the journey and I cant wait to see it all together.

The gib is not really attached to the machine.....it is a wedge that is held in vertical position via an adjusting bolt and a shim pack to set its position. The Turcite side of the gib moves on the way and is stationary against the moving part...but there is some ( small) clearance between the gib and the way surface..that also means there can also be clearance on the back side.

The gib is held from moving length wise, but not wedged tight. The shim would likely stay put...I believe some tight wedging of the gid does happen as the table moves left or right and
the vertical slide tries to tip.....
Guess the answer for me was that it would most likely be fine (a shim).....but at this point i just was not comfortable with "maybe".
Cheers Ross

Well the weekend has come and gone.
Got some work in on the machine...
The results of the gib re-lining are in and i am happy with the results.

Came in with a couple of passes , then the center relief.
Installed gib when adjusted for good drag has the narrow (bottom) end about 3/16"short of being flush with the bottom of the vertical casting.
At the top it has almost all of the original ship pack under the hold down strap, so i should get plenty of adjustment as things wear in...








So mow i am getting to the end of the scraping on the vertical slide...just one more gib set to fit, and that would be the plate keeper gibs that ride
on the back side of the box ways.


To make fitting these gibs i scraped the plate gib mounting faces flat to each other and parallel with the face of the already scraped way faces on the vertical slide...the ones
on the slot....



Here is the test for parallel...1,2,3 block on the floor of the box way, qualified granite parallel on the gib mounting surface.....



More to follow....
Cheers Ross

Gib mounting face gauged along the length form end to end...Indicator moved to the opposite side to compare to the
other gib mount and way surface....



The big picture.....


After that work, i was ready for the big event of the weekend.....



A bottom view for those of you that have never turned your Deckel over......





View of the vertical slide set to the box ways...Spent lots of time here cleaning all the lube lines in the vertical slide....
lots of swarf from the scraping...cleaned up the blue....that stuff gets on everything!
I will use this setup to final fit the keeper gibs...easier than when the machine is set upright...With gravity locating the vertical slide,
i just need to fit the keeper gibs for light drag with a good pattern of contact.....



Cheers Ross

Hi to all,

not that I would like to jump to such deep waters and repair my machine at this point, but this thread by Ross serves as an excellent tutorial for measuring and verifying the condition of any deckel.

So, I planned on saving the page for offline viewing, for fear of loosing the images, but I didn't do it on time...and now all the images are gone...

Has anybody, by any chance, saved it? Or perhaps Ross yourself?

Thanks in advance.
Thanos

Thanos:
I have become a victim of corporate greed..... Have been posting images here that were hosted by "Photobucket.com" for quite some time now. I like posting photos form a hosting site because the size format is larger
than what you get posting on this board directly. But now i have to re-think all this!
Was offered as a free service with a limit to the amount of storage allowed...If you needed more you could pay for that.
So currently i am at 17% of allowed storage, but the rules have changed.
Photobucket now demands $40.00 per month to unlock my posted images......So now all my back postings are no longer view able....

No warning , just closed access to my photos.
I can still view them on their site, but as of now i can't help you and i am looking for another solution. I have backup of all my images, but impossible to know which photos i posted where.

Just really pissed about this turn...don't like being held hostage.
Cheers Ross

The Photobucket thing is wreaking havoc all over the net. I suspect the backlash will hurt them badly.
I've been using flickr for a long time, they've always been better than PB but Yahoo took over Flickr and Verizon is buying Yahoo so it may not last much longer. I'd start my own personal page at Web.com for $5.95/mo before I paid someone $40 to host photos plus spam me with ads and popups.

AlfaGTA said:

Thanos:
I have become a victim of corporate greed..... Have been posting images here that were hosted by "Photobucket.com" for quite some time now. I like posting photos form a hosting site because the size format is larger

Click to expand...

To their credit, it was a free service. I agree about image size, but at least Milacron provides the ability to upload them, and that is probably the safest.

Hard to change old threads though...in most cases the posts can't be edited anymore, so those posts are frozen in time...not much that can be done about that.

FWIW, I used to use dropbox for the same reason, and they also recently started disallowing embedded links, they need to go to their site. I've been uploading any pics to PM, albeit slightly smaller.

There ain't no perfect world...

Cheers,
Alan