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Thread: how to evaluate an FP1?
04-02-2008, 04:21 AM #1
how to evaluate an FP1?
So, I've never run one, what do I look for? I'm looking at a mk3 I guess (two dials). Reasonably clean, but not sparkling. Paint near the top is prtty nice, but pretty much gone around the base. A few table holes and gouges. Looks like it was seriously used, but not obviously abused in any way. I noted .030 backlash in X axis. All handles move smoothly. Didn't look at much else in the five minutes I had, but I'll go back.
I'm told it has dividing head, horizontal arbor, regular and high-speed head, two tables, collets, and a bunch of misc tooling, though I didn't see it. I think price is $5K. If I understand market correctly (eg, from reading here now and then), this is a reasonable price for decent condition machine with these accessories, though not a once-in-lifetime steal. Maybe just an OK price for a moderately worn machine.
Any help on how to think about this and how to evaluate the machine would be appreciated.
04-02-2008, 05:42 AM #2
Thank you for your detailed description. A photo would be nice, as would a year or SN, but you're on the right track.
I would think a "two dial" (meaning two round dials containing range dials in the center) would be a 40 taper machine. Might want to double check that...anyway the other is MK4, or basically Morse #4 with special threads. All other things being equal, the 40 taper is worth more.
If everything else is operational, the paint missing around the base may be your primary concern. Unless you're someone like me, this is not a vanity issue. You will have to decipher what removed that paint? It could just be an operator who used it for years tapping his/her foot against it, or dropping tools, or forklift gouges..., or it could be decades of flood coolant with ??? in the mix (chemical or ???).
Without photos, it's impossible to tell from here. With photos, it's not much easier.
I'd have a close look at the Z and X ways. Peer behind the bellows if it has them. Check for rust, severe coolant staining/pitting, and wear. Some wear is going to be normal of course.
Try to discover the history on the machine and what kind of life it has lived.
FP-1's are notorious for X axis slop...Thing is, there is a thrust bearing adjustment that is commonly out, but they also do get worn leadscrew/nuts. Try to see how much of the backlash is being caused by the leadscrew moving independant of the table. In other words, does the handwheel move in/out without taking the table with it. If the thrust bearing is loose it will cause this.
So basically that X backlash can be caused by either or both. Many are willing to accept a worn screw and move to a DRO if the machine is nice in other regards, or to fix it.
In any case, if I understand you correctly... Then you do indeed understand the market correctly.
04-02-2008, 09:42 AM #3
04-02-2008, 11:10 AM #4
I assume that this is the machine that has just appeared on ebay. Bay area, Same general description except no high speed head and no tilting table. Machine looks in reasonable condition. Pity that the high speed head and tilting table are no longer with the package. If given a chance at the complete package for around five (assuming that the universal table was in good condition) it would have been better than a reasonable price!
04-02-2008, 01:26 PM #5
04-02-2008, 03:10 PM #6
Yes, that's the one I was looking at. I think there was a misunderstanding about the other head and table. If they had that, surely it'd be in the eBay listing.
The one in Nevada looks to be quite a bit nicer.
04-02-2008, 06:18 PM #7
The one in Nevada also has the high speed head, obviously. Both are close enough for you t be able to pickup in person, which is nice (for expense and because you can check 'em out in person). There seems to be a 40 taper collet deficiency on the Nevada machine, which is odd... Ideally you'd get more 40 taper collets. If either of these machines are MT4, then the chances are the vertical head is not original.
The guy in San Leandro is way off on his date... The machine is a 60's, not a 90's, but that is something that has been brought up.
Sneebot (who posts here) also has an FP2 for sale right now. It looks to be fairly nice too and you may want to consider that. The FP2 isn't appreciably larger than the FP1 (physically) but it has powered feeds in all axis, rapids in all axis (the FP1 of the generation you are talking about does not have any rapids) and has a surprisingly increased throw when compared to the physical size increase.
04-03-2008, 03:25 AM #8
[QUOTE=Milacron;866927]Thanks for blabbing about it but while we're blabbing, notice there is another one on eBay if you look closer. Suddenly, it's FP1 two dial city...
Don, If drawing attention to an auction that is in plain sight with a view to aiding a discussion about a particular machine by providing access to a full description including photographs is what you call 'blabbing' then I admit it. I am a 'Blabber'
I respectfully submit that most forumites who visit the Deckel forum also monitor Ebay pretty carefully for all things Deckel.
However, since I really enjoy the Deckel forum in particular and Practical Machinist in general and have beniffited greatly from discussions here - (including input by yourself) - i shall infutture be mindful not to include any information in my posts that you might construe as 'blabbing'
I did not see the Nevada machine and when I checked after being alerted by your post it was no longer on ebay.
04-03-2008, 05:35 AM #9
The FP1 being sold by Gary Aragon to which I think you were referring is an early twin dial with a MT4 head, which as Sean pointed out is less desirably than a 40 taper. But this is not a real issue as there is plenty of tooling around for MT4 machines.
It also has the early motor mount and MK1 hand wheel which would seem to indicate an very early twin dial.
Interestingly it is missing the end cap on the main horizontal head assembly to which the Y-axis lead screw and bellows is attached.
It might be worth asking why, because as is it the machine cannot be used.
I think you will find the paint just gets eaten away by years of coolant, swarf and use.
04-03-2008, 10:32 AM #10
Adrian, well spotted - you are quite right about the end cap - and it is an odd part to be missing . Strange! The machine does appear to be 40 taper though - all the collets and arbors are 40 taper and there does not seem to be and 4mt stuff in the tooling picture.
04-03-2008, 12:21 PM #11
this time wear your glasses
I didn't see much harm in blabbing about that one, since at $8,500 it will send cold shivers down the spines of most folks tuning in here
Re the talk of "early dial type" with MT4 spindle...is there such an animal ? I assumed all dial types were no. 40 spindle (as are both the FP1's on eBay)
Re the missing end cap on Y axis...since I wasn't interested in the machine I had not opened all the photos but now that it's pointed out I see what you guys mean and that is a major curiosity indeed. I think Y axis would still move without that cap but it's important for end support and thrust bearing purposes.
04-03-2008, 12:34 PM #12
The curiously coy Nevada machine still does not come up when I do an Ebay search for Deckel. Not under universal milling machine either. Strange.
04-03-2008, 12:46 PM #13
04-03-2008, 01:21 PM #14
Both FP1's looks to me like SK40 taper.
But the seller of the first better find the missing part in a hurry.
If not, you should point it out and make him an offer.
Nice small collection of tooling.
04-03-2008, 01:29 PM #15
Many thanks for the ultimate.......!!! It is really strange that my search does not bring it up. Makes me wonder what else I might be missing. Have others had this experience?
04-03-2008, 01:49 PM #16
04-03-2008, 01:52 PM #17
I have the same problem with e-Bay searches.
Everytime e-Bay changes the layout of their site you have to go back and reset some of the search settings.
I know of a couple of machines that are on e-Bay and don't show up in my searches.
04-03-2008, 01:53 PM #18
Believe the missing rear part to the "Y" axis is to the most part just a cover that is the end mount for the bellows. This willnot affect the ability to use the "Y" axis in any way. The "Y" leadscrew is mounted to a bracket that bolts to the bottom of the "Y" slide. It appears to be intact in the photo. The cover , a casting, is bolted through the screw mount and its purpose is to close off the end and support the bellows. Clever machine types could make a replacement from sheet stock welded or brazed together in the general shape and fit the snaps required for holding the bellows.....
04-03-2008, 02:15 PM #19
Re my comment about end support and thrust bearing purposes... I was thinking about the (rear) end cap on an FP2 long range head ! D'oh !
04-03-2008, 02:50 PM #20
The Aragon machine's vertical is not MT4, it is 40 taper... If you look closely in one of the photos you can just see the bosses for the positive torque ring. In another photo you can see the (left side) you can see the flats that are used to remove the 40 to MT4 adapter. It is confusing, true, but I'm 99% sure the head has an adapter in it and is not MT4.