Metric Deckel or similar in the USA?

I'm shopping for a Deckel or similar machine and am having trouble finding any in the USA or Canada with metric screws and dials. I've found a company in the Europe who has an FP1 and is willing to crate for shipping. It's honestly not all that expensive, but I'd expect putting a machine on a boat would be a last resort.
I've considered buying an inch machine and converting it, but it seems the machine, parts, and shipping of parts would not be much less than buying an originally metric machine from Europe.

I'm familiar with the idea of flipping the switch on the DRO, ignoring the dials and making a power feed chart. That's not really what I'm looking for, but I've considered it as a temporary step along the path: buy an inch machine, use the DRO in the interim until I can order the changeover components.

Anyone been down this road before?

burdickjp said:

Anyone been down this road before?

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Not me. I just turn on the DRO to whichever units I need and never look at the dials again, even when working the DRO in inches on a machine with inch screws and dials. As to a power feed chart, use the machine enough, and you will have the rate conversions memorized well enough. 100 mm/min = 4 in/min close enough.

Been done...search for "Peter" and his post regarding converting an FP2 inch machine to metric.....

Here there are some examples (Deckel) that are in country and have metric scales/screws/dials/gearing.....but its rare (relatively)
Most machines delivered to the US market came with the Inch setup. Some examples came here via shipping from parent Euro companies...
and often those machines were metric....

Not trying to get on your thing here, but really can't see its an issue having dials one way or the other especially since the current DRO's are now so easy to use in either format.
Personally like the inch version manual machines better, not because of the units, but rather that the inch machines have finer pitch lead screws which makes hitting those small location moves easier....

To me it seems similar to the deal of having hand wheels on the CNC Deckels.....at first thought seem like a great feature. But run the machine /(DRO) for a month and the handles/ (dials) become
a non factor.

I own two manual Deckels. Both are fitted up with full 3 axis Heidenhain DRO's...Can't remember the last time i really looked at any of the feed handle micrometer collars......
Do use the distance scales on the slides to keep track of general position and total travel ...but the dials, nope. Backlash, positional change via clamping...bolt circles, pocket, scaling, center finding...Its all in the box...
It will even keep track of where you are if the power goes off...has multi datums as well, can work incrimental and absolute on the same part,,,,,Can set tool length offsets running horizontal or vertical..which will translate
bolt hole or pocket data to either vertical or horizontal running....A DRO is like giving your machine a smart phone, and they are just as comfortable in either system.....Oh, and the correct DRO will also read out
the feed rate (dynamic) as the slide is moving, so even that is not an issue......

Cheers Ross

burdickjp said:

I'm shopping for a Deckel or similar machine and am having trouble finding any in the USA or Canada with metric screws and dials. I've found a company in the Europe who has an FP1 and is willing to crate for shipping. It's honestly not all that expensive, but I'd expect putting a machine on a boat would be a last resort.
I've considered buying an inch machine and converting it, but it seems the machine, parts, and shipping of parts would not be much less than buying an originally metric machine from Europe.

I'm familiar with the idea of flipping the switch on the DRO, ignoring the dials and making a power feed chart. That's not really what I'm looking for, but I've considered it as a temporary step along the path: buy an inch machine, use the DRO in the interim until I can order the changeover components.

Anyone been down this road before?

Click to expand...

I don't know how rare because over the years I have owned 2 FP1 mills with metric screws. On the other hand I have had a half dozen or so with inch configurations so maybe they are rarer than not? Being metric always seemed a reason not to keep them because everything else I use has inch screws, I should add that I'm not into digital readouts as any type of fix.
I currently have a beautiful Japanese Deckel copy (Riken)in the metric form and that is the only thing I don't like about it. Has the slotting head, both tables that are like new and original vise in the same condition. It is the first Deckel/European type mill I bought and it holds some kind of sentimental value that I really don't understand but suffice to say I haven't accepted any low ball - bottom feeder offers to sell yet?
Dan

If you want inch feed rates on an inch machine, the Swiss have it nailed! Here is the feed rate dial on my Aciera F4.



The dial on my F5 is just as weird. I think it provides the exact same rates internally, but whomever calculated the 64ths rounded the numbers the other direction, so the two mills differ from each other by about 1/64"/min feed rate at each setting. What were they thinking???

AlfaGTA said:

Personally like the inch version manual machines better, not because of the units, but rather that the inch machines have finer pitch lead screws which makes hitting those small location moves easier....

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This would be a good reason to keep the screws in inches, for sure.

Danny VanVoorn said:

I don't know how rare because over the years I have owned 2 FP1 mills with metric screws. On the other hand I have had a half dozen or so with inch configurations so maybe they are rarer than not? Being metric always seemed a reason not to keep them because everything else I use has inch screws, I should add that I'm not into digital readouts as any type of fix.
I currently have a beautiful Japanese Deckel copy (Riken)in the metric form and that is the only thing I don't like about it. Has the slotting head, both tables that are like new and original vise in the same condition. It is the first Deckel/European type mill I bought and it holds some kind of sentimental value that I really don't understand but suffice to say I haven't accepted any low ball - bottom feeder offers to sell yet?
Dan

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I work entirely in metric. I've never owned inch tools and never intend to. My career and hobby path started with me working on old Japanese cars. This lead to buying metric precision measuring tools for building engines, and that lead to machining in metric.

I had to look the Riken up and saw some pictures of yours you took in 2016. That is super cool. I have to admit that given my background that machine would be that much cooler for me than just a Deckel. It doesn't look like they're very common. If you decide you want to pass it on to someone who'd value it please let me know.

rklopp said:

If you want inch feed rates on an inch machine, the Swiss have it nailed! Here is the feed rate dial on my Aciera F4.

The dial on my F5 is just as weird. I think it provides the exact same rates internally, but whomever calculated the 64ths rounded the numbers the other direction, so the two mills differ from each other by about 1/64"/min feed rate at each setting. What were they thinking???

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That's absurd.

burdickjp said:

That's absurd.

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I wonder if Aciera meant it as an intentional poke at the UK or US and their use of Imperial units. I'd love to see the sales feedback. "Nice mill, but I bought a Deckel instead, because I couldn't understand the power feed dial."

burdickjp said:

I'm familiar with the idea of flipping the switch on the DRO, ignoring the dials and making a power feed chart. That's not really what I'm looking for, but I've considered it as a temporary step along the path: buy an inch machine, use the DRO in the interim until I can order the changeover components.

Click to expand...

Just to repeat what others here have said already: in practice I NEVER look at the X/Y/Z dials, only at the DRO readout, and from time to time at the scales when setting something up. So I would encourage you to take the "temporary step". You might find it completely satisfactory and find no need to move on.

Cheers,
Bruce

My FP3L has metric dials and screws (delivered to the USA, but the first owner was a British expat). But like everyone else says, I exclusively use DRO and don’t mind the metric power feeds.

rklopp said:

If you want inch feed rates on an inch machine, the Swiss have it nailed! Here is the feed rate dial on my Aciera F4.

View attachment 217387

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I have a (Spanish) Lagun FU-4 universal mill and the power feeds are also fractional. Because every machinist needs power feed settings to be accurate to 1 part in 64...

No opinion either way but we ship stuff all the time and it really isn't that big a deal. You can ship a complete 40' container across the Pacific for $2500, I bet you couldn't move a Haas vmc across the country for that. All you need is an average-intelligence freight forwarder and you're set. So if that's the hangup, maybe not as bad as you think.

SeaMoss said:

No opinion either way but we ship stuff all the time and it really isn't that big a deal. You can ship a complete 40' container across the Pacific for $2500, I bet you couldn't move a Haas vmc across the country for that. All you need is an average-intelligence freight forwarder and you're set. So if that's the hangup, maybe not as bad as you think.

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I've found several machine tool resellers (that doesn't sound like it's the correct word) in Europe who are willing to crate and ship. It's not that expensive to cross the Atlantic, either. I'm really looking for the right machine with the right accessories.

I'm also in a bit of a time crunch, as I'll be going to school in August and will be taking a severe pay cut to do so. If I'm going to buy a proper and capable milling machine, now is the time to do so.

It was probably me offering burdickjp that FP1
Also told him that it would cost a couple of thousand for parts to make the conversion from imperial to metric
I have a realy nice FP1 for sale right now for a more than decent price
And its a NT40 machine with round dials
http://veltmanmachines.nl/en/vm/milling-machines/gereedschapsfreesbank-deckel-fp1-2/
I estimated shipping DDU and crating at €1250-€1500 depending where he is located in Virginia


Peter

Peter is a good guy and easy to work with!
Not so with customs brokers! Price can escalate wildly, and you seemingly have no control once it makes land and gets stuck in customs.....

Lots of hands out for a cut.....The ocean shipping is not the issue!
Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA said:

Peter is a good guy and easy to work with!
Not so with customs brokers! Price can escalate wildly, and you seemingly have no control once it makes land and gets stuck in customs.....

Lots of hands out for a cut.....The ocean shipping is not the issue!
Cheers Ross

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Hello Ross

I have learned
So this Is why I prefere to offer it DAP(delivered at place ) now

Peter

Peter from Holland said:

It was probably me offering burdickjp that FP1
Also told him that it would cost a couple of thousand for parts to make the conversion from imperial to metric
I have a realy nice FP1 for sale right now for a more than decent price
And its a NT40 machine with round dials
http://veltmanmachines.nl/en/vm/milling-machines/gereedschapsfreesbank-deckel-fp1-2/
I estimated shipping DDU and crating at €1250-€1500 depending where he is located in Virginia


Peter

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I've still got my eyes on that machine, Peter! I want to make sure I'm not overlooking lower hanging fruit before committing to putting a machine on a boat.

burdickjp said:

I've still got my eyes on that machine, Peter! I want to make sure I'm not overlooking lower hanging fruit before committing to putting a machine on a boat.

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I can also vouch for Peter, who has a reputation for being honest and reliable. My business dealings with him have been straightforward and drama-free.

ballen said:

I can also vouch for Peter, who has a reputation for being honest and reliable. My business dealings with him have been straightforward and drama-free.

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That's really good to hear!

AlfaGTA said:

Peter is a good guy and easy to work with!
Not so with customs brokers! Price can escalate wildly, and you seemingly have no control once it makes land and gets stuck in customs.....

Lots of hands out for a cut.....The ocean shipping is not the issue!

Click to expand...

Unless they have changed it (which is possible) you should avoid Customs brokers. For small amounts (like under $100,000 USD) you can get yourself bonded to act as your own Customs broker. That cost me about a hundred bucks. Then the people at the Customs building, at least the one in San Francisco, within walking distance of the Ferry Building so you don't even have to drive, were really helpful.

I don't know about New Joisey, that could be entirely different.

China is a bitch. More red tape than Carter has liver pills. This is something that the US could be attacking but of course, your saboteurs in the past four or five administrations have not because Walmart doesn't like competition.