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My "new" Deckel FP2NC

mTeryk

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Location
corvallis,or
It's been almost 3 weeks so I guess it's time to post up some pictures and info on my "new" FP2NC. Here it is in its new home.

P1040129-X2.jpg


I bought this machine from Ross. I know that for many of you the FP2NC is a pretty small machine but for me, it's the largest machine I have moved. With Ross's experience and help it was also the easiest and lowest stress machine I have moved. At his recommendation, I rented this drop deck air ride trailer and we simply rolled it on with his machine skates. Back at my place, I was able to roll it off right into my shop with some borrowed skates. I think in the future a drop deck trailer will be my go to rental for machine moves.

P1040128-X2.jpg


That's my girlfriend posing with the mill. It's amazing what bringing my better half along will do. Ross's shop is in a really beautiful part of California. We took a few days off and got an AirBnB a few miles from his shop. Went to the beach and saw some Redwoods the day before loading the mill and took a couple days to drive the 550 miles home with the mill, stopping near Mt. Shasta along the way.

It's taken some futzing to get the power supply worked out. That's a 10hp Rotary phase converter behind it in the picture. Upon spindle start up the voltage of the wild leg drops about 15% which was causing the control to reset. I've got it working by running the voltage output of the 380v transformer at +5% and swapping the leads until I found a setup that kept the control from resetting yet kept the spindle rotating correctly. I have another capacitor on the way which should help the voltage drop issue. It retrospect, I should have bought the Heavy Duty offered by American Rotary (or the Phase Perfect ..... )

Everything seems to be in really great shape on the mill. Once I got the power situation worked out, the control powers up and pretty much everything works as expected. The buttons on the control were pretty flakey, with some not working at all. I opened the cover on the control, hooked up my multi-meter on continuity test mode and bathed each button in Deoxit D5 while jogging the button until I got a nice clean connection. They all work great now.

:cheers:
P1040135-L.jpg


I've got a few questions which I'll ask in a following post. For now here's a few more pictures of the mill and a big thank you to Ross for helping to make this sale and move go so smoothly. Ross took time out of his busy schedule to walk me through all the features of the mill which will really give me a head start in getting productive with it.

Here's the FP2NC with the FP1. The wide angle lens makes them seem almost comparable in size but in reality the FP2NC dwarfs the FP1.
P1040131-X2.jpg


Inside of the cabinet (pretty darn clean)
P1040138-X2.jpg


Control
P1040133-X2.jpg


Inside of the control
P1040134-X2.jpg


Closer up of table
P1040132-X2.jpg


That's it for now. Thanks again to Ross for all the help and for feeding my Deckel habit. I'm off to continue my search for Vacuoline 1419, which I'm beginning to suspect has been discontinued.

Teryk
 
Good going, nice looking machine and if I remember a real fair price to boot.
Dan

Thanks Dan. Yeah it was a really fair price. I actually waffled for a moment as to whether I should/could buy it. After reading the thread Milacron brought back from the dead, about the guy who wasn't sure if he should pay $500 for a late model FP1, I had to laugh seeing a little of myself in that. I'm super happy with the purchase and can't wait to make some parts.

Teryk
 
Congrats on getting that machine. I really wanted to buy it, but the timing was just not right for me.

Couldn't ask to have a better caretaker for the machine before you. That in itself is quite a bit, knowing some bloke didn't abuse it. ;)
 
I used the same style of trailer to move my maho about 3-4 weeks ago I think. Except my maho weighs 6700lbs. You didn't rent it from the place in portland did you? Those trailers make life easy when moving machines. I use to use a tilting bed trailer, but the drop deck are so much nicer. Nice machine
 
Thanks Dan. Yeah it was a really fair price. I actually waffled for a moment as to whether I should/could buy it. After reading the thread Milacron brought back from the dead, about the guy who wasn't sure if he should pay $500 for a late model FP1, I had to laugh seeing a little of myself in that. I'm super happy with the purchase and can't wait to make some parts.

Teryk
I laughed too when that old post was brought back from the dead, couldn't remember all the details though. Seems like some parts were missing off the vertical head and don't remember what it resold for or who got it either.
I'm looking at buying another machine myself as we speak but can't pull the trigger. Although it is something I've wanted the condition and price are way out of line IMO so not near as cut and dry as your deal. Time will tell; I do know that at this stage in my life I'm a lot pickier that I was when I got into this 30 years ago.
Dan
 
Couldn't ask to have a better caretaker for the machine before you. That in itself is quite a bit, knowing some bloke didn't abuse it. ;)

My understanding is that Ross bought it for the control (Heidenhein). He removed the control to put on his FP4NC and put the Dialog4 off of that one on the one I bought. He never used this mill other than to make sure it was working after doing the control swap. That being said it did have the Heidenhein on it so whoever had it I'm sure took good care of it. It certainly looks it.

You didn't rent it from the place in portland did you? Those trailers make life easy when moving machines.

Yep. Portland Rentals. Only place I could find one. If you do rent it again, check the latch bar on the front of the trailer. The latch was worn on it when I rented it and the trailer kept slipping off the bar, carrying the whole weight of the mill on the hydraulics. :eek:

Teryk
 
One of the things that was annoying me was a "rhythmic thrumming sound" coming from the X axis servo when moving in the +X direction. It really sounded and felt mechanical so had me a bit worried. It turned out it was just a dirty commutator. A couple minutes with a q-tip and the aforementioned Deoxit and the feeds are as smooth as butter.

P1040143-XL.jpg


A few questions:

In the manual I have it states that a too tight drive belt can lead to excessive gear noise. It states that the belt should be tight enough that it doesn't squeal upon acceleration or braking but loose enough that "You should be able to push the belt down to the upper cast edge". The head on this FP2NC is a little noisy at high speeds. Not too bad and it's quieter than the one other FP2NC I have heard but I'm trying to figure out how to appropriately adjust the belt and not sure what the upper cast edge is. The manual I have is for the flip head so I suppose that text might not apply at all to mine. Here's my belt. Any suggestions?

P1040137-XL.jpg


Here is the way the y axis way wiper was oriented on my machine (say that 3 times fast). On Edit: Actually that isn't the y-axis wiper. That seals the oil into the vertical head. Since it doesn't move during milling it doesn't really "wipe" and therefore is installed backwards in the picture as I suspected. Still wondering, How does one tell if the wipers need replacement? Does the rubber just get too hard and inflexible?

P1040140-XL.jpg


Last but not least, I hate it when I put something back together and there is an extra part. Can someone tell me where this goes? :D

P1040144-XL.jpg
 
Teryk

Congrats. That machine is a close cousin of mine, except mine is a flip-head. The control cabinet on mine is less than 2/3 as high as yours, but seems to contain the same guts in a different layout. I run mine on a 10-HP American Rotary "CNC-rated" converter. My control would also occasionally reset due to voltage sag when starting on high speeds and with simultaneous rapid moves. I've developed the habit of putting a G 4 Fx.y pause after every S+nnnn to let the spindle motor get past the inrush spike before doing a rapid. For the horizontal spindle, a 0.5-second pause is enough. For the vertical spindle at, say 5,000 RPM, I used a 1.5-second pause.

The ram way wiper on my machine looks like yours in terms of orientation, as far as I can tell from a slightly blurry photo. As for the extra piece, does it belong at the base of the back of the column? My machine has some flat green sheetmetal back there, although that sheetmetal has some bends in it.

I never bought into Deckel's theory that incorrect belt tension would cause gear noise. I can see why it could overload bearings, but not gears.

Good luck!

Regards,

RKlopp
 
Last edited:
That machine sure has a lot of road miles on it HAHA.

Coast to coast move then North to South.

My estimate road miles 4500 from boat from Germany to now Portland.

I originally installed that machine at Westinghouse/Cutler Hammer in Pittsburgh PA when I worked for Deckel USA Columbia MD and lived 25 miles from Cutler Hammer.

I maintained that machine for over 25 years,they also had FP3NC that Swarf Rat still has?

Cutler Hammer FP3NC was my first Heidenhain ever RETROFIT back in 1996 and took 9 weeks at there plant In Pittsburgh PA this includes new operators console,wiring the retrofit,writing the PLC on site,and 5 shake down days and customizing the shifting and PLC for how they wanted the control to run.This also included showing Cutler Hammer how to run using the freshly updated Control with DNC .

Cutler Hammer FP2NC was my first Short cabinet and Third ever retrofit in 1997,original control was Dialog 3.

The Second Retrofit I did 1997 was old 1978 point to point machine with 2302 Control FP4A 3 axis to Heidenhain 410 control machine for 3M Medical Products in Irvine CA and I believe is now in private hands In Wisconsin If memory serves me. This machine had complete mechanical rebuild at that time.

Ross originally passed on a screaming deal on both machines, and I sold them to Swarf direct from Cutler Hammer for ridiculous low price for 2 Heidenhain conversion machines.

The machines were used In Cutler Hammers R&D Lab for prototypes and small batch runs of maybe 100 parts.

The machines were run by 3 different very smart Machinist and after the retrofits they were able to CAD/CAM to drip feed long programs for prototyping parts.

Swarf sold FP2NC to Ross were Ross removes the Heidenhain and installs it on his fairly freshly mechanical rebuilt FP4NC machine.

Now the machine ends back as Dialog 3 control up in Portland around some of my other customers.

There is another of my retrofits in OR an FP3NC with Heidenhain 410 and universal table.

Good luck with the machine!
 
Good looking Deckels. Now you need to paint your floor and that ugly as sin garage door ;) Seriously, a painted floor makes the environment so much nicer and would be not that expensive for such a small space. The problem would be the corrosive chemicals needed to prep the concrete so the paint would adhere properly so machines might have to be moved outside under tarps for a few days. Maybe you could move machines to one side and slather with anti rust spray and paint 1/2 floor at a time but I would worry a little about the acid needed for the floor prep effecting the electronics.

Another school of thought is just to clean the floor with normal cleaners and paint with cheap latex paint. It will wear off soon enough, but just keep rolling down more as needed.
 
Teryk

Congrats. That machine is a close cousin of mine, except mine is a flip-head. The control cabinet on mine is less than 2/3 as high as yours, but seems to contain the same guts in a different layout. I run mine on a 10-HP American Rotary "CNC-rated" converter. My control would also occasionally reset due to voltage sag when starting on high speeds and with simultaneous rapid moves. I've developed the habit of putting a G 4 Fx.y pause after every S+nnnn to let the spindle motor get past the inrush spike before doing a rapid. For the horizontal spindle, a 0.5-second pause is enough. For the vertical spindle at, say 5,000 RPM, I used a 1.5-second pause.

The ram way wiper on my machine looks like yours in terms of orientation, as far as I can tell from a slightly blurry photo. As for the extra piece, does it belong at the base of the back of the column? My machine has some flat green sheetmetal back there, although that sheetmetal has some bends in it.

I never bought into Deckel's theory that incorrect belt tension would cause gear noise. I can see why it could overload bearings, but not gears.

Good luck!

Regards,

RKlopp

Thanks. I'll keep the pauses in mind when I start programming it more. So far all I've done is a few simple programs and canned cycles. I'm hoping this additional run capacitor works to prevent the voltage sag. I'll report back with results. I have the same rotary as you so if it works it would seem well worth the expense at only $30 including shipping.

I tend to agree with you on the belt tension question (hypothetically since I don't have much experience to go on). It doesn't seem all that tight right now and doesn't slip but I will probably fiddle with it to see if a little less tension quiets things down.

Teryk
 
That machine sure has a lot of road miles on it HAHA.

Coast to coast move then North to South.

My estimate road miles 4500 from boat from Germany to now Portland.

I originally installed that machine at Westinghouse/Cutler Hammer in Pittsburgh PA when I worked for Deckel USA Columbia MD and lived 25 miles from Cutler Hammer.

I maintained that machine for over 25 years,they also had FP3NC that Swarf Rat still has?
....

This machine had complete mechanical rebuild at that time.

....

Now the machine ends back as Dialog 3 (actually a Dialog 4) control up in Portland around some of my other customers.

There is another of my retrofits in OR an FP3NC with Heidenhain 410 and universal table.

Good luck with the machine!

Thanks for the info and history. One question, when you say that "This Machine had a mechanical rebuild at that time" are referring to the FP2NC that I just bought or the FP3A retrofit?

Teryk
 
Make sure all wiring from the main to the machine is large enough....don't skimp here...#10 min. i should think.
Also there are soft start devices that limit the current spike when spooling up a motor...Believe some forum members here have fitted these
with good results....

Of course its easy for me to spend someone's money...but going to the PP is the best long range strategy...eliminates pretty much all the issues that phase converters
bring...allows wiring all the three phase machines as though you had real utility delivered power, the PP is quiet and available in a weather tight enclosure so it can live outside
freeing valuable shop space......A 10 horse unit would run your entire shop...Of course they are not inexpensive....but like a good machine, over the long run the cost becomes easier to accept.
Cheers Ross
 
Teryk

I forgot the control Ross had was D4 on His Fp4Nc at work, I did not know if he took that D4 and upgraded 1 of his home shop machines.

The Fp2nc that you now have has not been rebuilt by me,I do not know if any one else has done any rebuilding since it went to the west coast.

As far as the belt tension on the spindle motor, you should be able to deflect down by .500-.750 for correct tension.

Because there is so much contact area using the ribbed belt it does not have to be banjo string tight!
 
Make sure all wiring from the main to the machine is large enough....don't skimp here...#10 min. i should think.
Also there are soft start devices that limit the current spike when spooling up a motor...Believe some forum members here have fitted these
with good results....

Of course its easy for me to spend someone's money...but going to the PP is the best long range strategy...eliminates pretty much all the issues that phase converters
bring...allows wiring all the three phase machines as though you had real utility delivered power, the PP is quiet and available in a weather tight enclosure so it can live outside
freeing valuable shop space......A 10 horse unit would run your entire shop...Of course they are not inexpensive....but like a good machine, over the long run the cost becomes easier to accept.
Cheers Ross

Everything is 10awg except for the line from the 380v transformer to the cabinet. I ran out of line and so just used what was currently on the machine. I'm going to swap that out soon, however. The control doesn't reset when using the +5% taps on the transformer (~400v). It appears from my reading of the wiring diagram that +5% is OK for the cabinet and control so I'm hoping I'm not damaging anything using it this way until I get the new capacitor.

If wishes were fishes I'd have bought the PP. Of course that's what I said last time I bought a rotary and now with the addition of a second one I'm almost halfway to the cost of a PP. Maybe if I stop buying machines I'll have the money to upgrade to a PP. :-)

Teryk
 
Teryk

As far as the belt tension on the spindle motor, you should be able to deflect down by .500-.750 for correct tension.

Because there is so much contact area using the ribbed belt it does not have to be banjo string tight![/COLOR]

Thanks a ton. That will help.

Teryk
 
Good looking Deckels. Now you need to paint your floor and that ugly as sin garage door ;) Seriously, a painted floor makes the environment so much nicer and would be not that expensive for such a small space. The problem would be the corrosive chemicals needed to prep the concrete so the paint would adhere properly so machines might have to be moved outside under tarps for a few days. Maybe you could move machines to one side and slather with anti rust spray and paint 1/2 floor at a time but I would worry a little about the acid needed for the floor prep effecting the electronics.

Another school of thought is just to clean the floor with normal cleaners and paint with cheap latex paint. It will wear off soon enough, but just keep rolling down more as needed.

I call it rustic chic :D

The primary limiting factor for me is that I'm in a rental. I've wired it myself and bolted some stuff to the floor but there's only so much I'm willing to do to a building that I'll only be in for a couple more years at the most. I have big plans for when I own my own space but for now I have to enjoy the "character of the building"
 
A few questions:


Here is the way the y axis way wiper was oriented on my machine (say that 3 times fast). On Edit: Actually that isn't the y-axis wiper. That seals the oil into the vertical head. Since it doesn't move during milling it doesn't really "wipe" and therefore is installed backwards in the picture as I suspected. Still wondering, How does one tell if the wipers need replacement? Does the rubber just get too hard and inflexible?

P1040140-XL.jpg


Last but not least, I hate it when I put something back together and there is an extra part. Can someone tell me where this goes? :D

P1040144-XL.jpg

Assume it needs wipers...they all do. Vertical wipers on the "Z" slide top should be changed often. (high contact area exposed to lots of chips and coolant)

That wiper /seal on the "Y" top casting is in correctly...purpose is to wipe the dirt and swarf from the dovetail when moving to retract fro horizontal or accessory use....Lip faces out
to effect wiping the dovetail....there is enough contact to keep the oil inside even though the lips face out.....That piece of sheet metal looks to be part of an air deflector
for the heat exchanger on the big cabinet.....there need to be a small plastic end piece on each end that allow clipping the part to the exit grille to force the air up or down (your choice). Earlier version was all metal
and had clips spot welded to the plate that hooked on the grill
Some cabinets have these lots don't....(parts get lost or broken,often in transit)

Cheers Ross

Cheers Ross
 








 
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