New Machine Day - Aciera F5 - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Table also looks a bit shy on clamping bolts for the tilt and swivel...also wonder if the "hung from a single angle" at the top of the slide that Aciera used was less effective at dampening
    low frequency vibrations than a full hard bolted mount....

    Maybe the Swiss just didn't expect anyone to run these machines all that hard....

    Cheers Ross
    The sort of equivalent in a Deckel table I recently sold... I suppose the Aciera table makes up for less clamping bolts to some extent by having some pretty serious thick casting and larger bolts

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    The taper pin on the F4 head does not put it into close enough tram to suit my tastes, I think because the taper hole may have been buggered at some point.
    On my Deckel FP2, the taper pin for the head rides in an eccentric bushing, which can be aligned by rotating the bushing (it has flats for that purpose). Perhaps your F4 head taper pin has a similar alignment adjustment.

  3. #63
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    My take on the adjustable reference pin is that Deckel only used that setup on the long reach vertical head.....Thinking that is because the long reach head was an accessory and mated to a machine
    on being sold, not fit as an ongoing part of the machine.

    Standard vertical heads were mated to the base machine carrying a tag having the serial number of the base machine, and a notation of how much the vertical head was displaced (if any)
    from the horizontal spindle....To my knowledge the long reach heads had no such tag.

    Later machines omitted serial number tags on the vertical head along with the notation on the vertical spindle displacement....

    Cheers Ross

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  5. #64
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    Ross, my long-reach vertical head is matched to the machine (stamped number) and also carries a tag saying that the vertical head is displaced 0.02mm to the left of the horizontal spindle.

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Table also looks a bit shy on clamping bolts for the tilt and swivel...also wonder if the "hung from a single angle" at the top of the slide that Aciera used was less effective at dampening
    low frequency vibrations than a full hard bolted mount....

    Maybe the Swiss just didn't expect anyone to run these machines all that hard....

    Cheers Ross
    ?? Seems to me there's a huge amount of clamped contact in each of the swivel directions, so it is rather hard bolted. In particular, the A axis (the one with an axle) has amazingly finely scraped surfaces covering large area around the clamping T-bolts. The T-bolts work on pretty big lever arms out from the pivots. The force required to make any of those slip would likely damage the spindle bearings or such. In any event, any hard running would throw chips all over creation, so I'll save that for the FP2NC with the enclosure.

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  8. #66
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    Here is a diagram showing how I have powered the mill from single-phase residential power. It is an open-delta system, corner-grounded on the high-voltage side. Note the lack of a fuse in the grounded corner leg (the neutral). If there were a fuse in that leg and if there were a fault between it and one of the ungrounded legs, the grounded fuse could open while leaving the ungrounded legs powered. That would not be good. It's the same reason there are no fuses in a regular residential neutral even though the neutral carries current.

    slide1.jpg
    The F5 runs just fine on this system, even plug-reversing the spindle motor. All wiring is in EMT or liquid-tite conduit. The wiring is all rated for 600V, as is the disconnect on the high side.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails slide1.jpg  

  9. #67
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    When I first got the F5, the X-axis was very tight at each end of the travel. I feared the ways were worn heavily in the middle. Unlike the F4, the F5 X-axis bronze nut is adjustable for backlash. That turned out to be the issue. As soon as I loosened the backlash a little, the tightness went away. I took the X leadscrew out, and can push the slide from end to end without any binding. The scraping underneath still looks gorgeous. Oddly, the F5 manual I got from Industrial Manuals does not show an adjustable-backlash X nut. I estimate the screw has about 0.010" backlash in the middle and zero at the ends. The F4 has slightly more in the middle.

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  11. #68
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    Default Reeves drive refurbish

    The Aciera F5 uses a Reeves drive plus two gear ranges (or three, when using the vertical spindle) for spindle speed control. The Reeve’s spring-loaded sheave is on the motor and the control sheave is on a driven intermediate shaft. The intermediate shaft drives the gearbox input via a high-tech flatbelt on crowned pulleys. (Later-generation machines had twin v-belts instead, for a more conventional design.) On my machine, the Reeve’s drive had at least one noisy bearing. It turned out that the “throwout bearing” that slides the moving flange of the intermediate sheave was failing.
    overall-reeves-received.jpg
    The F5 manual does not show an exploded assembly diagram for the Reeves drive, and I found out why. It seems the Reeves supplier did not intend the thing to come apart. Their philosophy must have been either that the core assembly was a throwaway or had to be returned to the factory for a rebuild. After all, the fixed flange was die-cast integrally with the steel shaft. It took some digging to figure out who made the drive, but I finally traced the “winged H” logo on the sheaves to US Patent 3,400,600 by Ruprecht, et al., and assigned to Ernst Heinkel AG, apparently related to the WWII German aircraft. The patent was filed in 1967, which fits with a “67” date mark on the die-cast sheave flanges.
    f5-manual-depiction.jpgwinged-h.jpgruprecht-patent-fig-1.jpgmold-date.jpg

    Thankfully, the flange faces were in excellent condition. The surface must have had some form of hardening applied, perhaps thick anodizing, as there was no noticeable wear.

    To be continued...

  12. #69
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    The Heinkel design gets around the Bridgeport “rattling plastic spline bushing” problem by avoiding the spline altogether. The moving flange of the control sheave rides on ball bearings that slide laterally on a hardened and ground shaft. The torque is transmitted through a set of six bushings arranged in a circle in the flange hub that slide along a set of six rods that are anchored to the intermediate shaft. The six rods are part of a brazed assembly that is screwed against a shoulder on the intermediate shaft using extremely fine threads, a bunch of Loctite, and a pair of pins driven axially into blind holes that split the threads. This rod assembly was possibly the most challenging thing I have ever disassembled without wrecking it. (Fortunately I could have made a new one, but I’ve got enough projects.) It may not seem difficult in hindsight, but I was flying blind with no certainty that the rod assembly was a threaded connection. The patent shows no threads. Also fortunately, the blind pins were soft enough to drill out. Because the rod assembly had been brazed, the steel was soft, and was at risk of collapsing under the Channelocks pliers force before the Loctite broke free. I hate using Channelocks like this, but there was nothing else to grab. My big strap wrench just squeezed like a boa and slipped. I thought about making a tool to grab the rods, but I think they would have folded over. Some heat and a brass punch finally got the assembly moving.
    pins.jpgsix-pins-fine-thread.jpgintermediate-shaft-fine-thread.jpg

    Once the rod assembly was out of the way, the throwout bearing cover was accessible to a puller, and the throwout bearing, which fortunately turned out to be a standard 6018 deep groove ball bearing, was accessible to a homemade bearing splitter and puller.

    Six flat-head straight-slotted screws between the guide rods were Loctited to death, but I got them out without rounding out the slots. The screws held a flat ring that retained the six guide bushings. The bushings had decomposed into a cross between elephant dung and gorilla snot. Seemingly related US patent US 3,504,560 assigned to Gerber Manufacturing in Elgin, IL, says the bushings could have been polyurethane. I ended up making new ones from black Delrin.

    Cleanup, regreasing, and reassembly were relatively straightforward. The new 6018 bearing was NOS Koyo for not too much money on eBay (it’s a 90 mm bore, so $120+ for a new SKF, for example). It pressed on relatively easily. The bearing cover was an easy heat-shrink operation. Instead of blind pins to lock the guide rod assembly, I tapped the blind holes and Loctited in short setscrews. One end of the intermediate shaft is supported by an angular contact bearing to react the throwout bearing thrust. It was in good shape, so I cleaned it and re-greased with Kluber NBU-15. The opposite bearing was a plane vanilla 6305, which I replaced.

    Before tackling the Reeves drive, I noticed that the flatbelt was tracking off to the rear. This was caused by the driven sheave having a wallowed-out bore, which allowed it to tilt. I bored and sleeved the sheave and made a new shaft key, which fixed that problem. I also cleaned up the edge of the belt where it had rubbed on the Reeves drive’s frame and rolled over a fin of material, which may have contributed to the tracking problem.

    After assembly, the drive was much quieter and ran smoothly through the full speed range.

    reassembled.jpgreassembled-1-.jpg

    Next up, I sent the vertical quill off the have the taper “kiss” ground to clean up some raised metal from a spun tool that happened before I got the machine.
    Last edited by rklopp; 04-28-2017 at 09:09 AM.

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  14. #70
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    The spindle taper is cleaned up and back from the grinders. It was kind of nerve-wracking because if the quill was lost in shipping or stolen off my porch, I'd be a world of hurt. The grinders were supposed to ship UPS 2-day to my office, but they sent it UPS ground to my house. Argh!

    I fabricated a new way wiper for the vertical axis - the prior, rubber one was shot. I used felt and brass shim. The F4 has felt.

    I also adjusted all of the gibs. There seems to be zero differential wear or swayback - the slides move just as easily at the extremes as in the middle of travel. I am a happy camper.

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  16. #71
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    You want to share the details for the taper touch up? (source, cost, post job evaluation etc)

    Cheers Ross

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    The grinding was done by High Speed Technologies out of New Hampshire. I was referred to them by SGS (Spindle Grinding Service), who only do on-site grinding, and California is out of reach for them cost-wise. HST fully cleaned up the taper. They did not touch the face. The contact pattern seems good. Runout by hand seems to be a couple of 10ths, which is more than I expected, frankly, but I have not fully explored the situation. It may be due to radial bearing clearance, which is taken up by lube film when running. I believe they ground the taper with the quill housing held in a steady rest while driving the spindle from the drive end in their cylindrical grinder, which should make the runout as small as it could possibly be. The spindle nose bearing is a cylindrical roller bearing with a tapered bore to allow clearance adjustment. Cost for the grinding was $538.

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  19. #73
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    Will you need to overhaul the spindle now to be sure there is no incursion of grinding swarf or coolant ?
    Or do you feel confident that all is well as is?

    Cheers Ross

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  21. #74
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    I am pretty sure all is well as-is. I didn't find any grinding debris stuck in the lube still in the quill rack teeth, spline, nor in the spindle nose gap. There is an O-ring in the nose that forms a seal.

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  23. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    You want to share the details for the taper touch up? (source, cost, post job evaluation etc)
    Not meaning to hijack the thread... but I sent my FP2 vertical spindle to Singer with the request that they take it apart, clean it, relubricate it and adjust it. When it came back, they had also ground the spindle taper and face. A 0.002 mm (2 micron) Tesa indicator running on the inside face just sits there, it doesn't move. I don't remember the cost, but it was very reasonable.


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