New (to me) Deckel FP1

Hello,

I'm hoping that I've pressed the right buttons to find the Deckel forum at large, never done this before. There seem to be Deckel owners all over the world and as I've just bought an FP1 I'm wondering if there are any near me in Devon, UK. My machine is from 1969 and I bought it from the original owner with the manufacturers cupboard full of good accessories and 3axis Accurite dro. It seems to be lightly used and in excellent condition but not used for some time, maybe years.

My problem at the moment is that it had a collet in the horizontal spindle very tightly gripped onto a drill. I loosened it ok and took out the drill but can't free the adaptor. I thought a tap with a leather mallet should do the job but it's stuck. Is there something I don't know? Is it threaded as well? Can't see anything on the drawings and I really don't want to use too much force.....!

Any ideas?

Well, firstly congratulations on being a Deckel owner.

The most obvious thought that springs to mind that the collet is still screwed in the draw bar. The FP1 uses both Morse Taper collets and SK40 (40INT) x S20x2 Collets like this Spannzange-din-574-Direktspannzange-D-8mm-DECKEL-SK40-FP1-FP2-S20x2

A picture of the back end of the horizontal spindle would help.

John

Depending on where you are in Devon you could be close to me in North Cornwall.

I have dial gearbox SK40 FP1 here that you can have look at which might help if your machine is the same.

This thread might give you some info if you have a MT4 machine.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ving-collet-holder-deckel-fp1-spindle-309979/

Hi John,

No it's not that type of collet, I have three types, that larger one which locates straight into SK40 taper, then some which are about 120mm long which have an adaptor and the smallest which also have an adaptor that has 32mm flats on it. The draw bar is captive on the end of the horizontal spindle and is fully released and loose, the collet is out leaving the adaptor behind. I didn't think SK40 collets locked in as it's such a steep taper, not like morse. Maybe I should take the drawbar out of the spindle and find a good fit piece of round stuff to tap it out?

Bob

Congratulations and welcome to the club, I think you bought the best mill available in that size range.
Some collets fit directly into the spindle and some use an adapter, now the question is which one are you referring to? If directly fitting the spindle then there may not be anything else in there and you're beating on the spindle nose, not good. The best thing you can do is show a picture of the spindle and what was in there and we will know what the answer is.
Dan

Hi DM,

I'm in the South Hams so a bit of a trek but maybe one day....!

My machine is also a dial speed SK40.

Having seen those pics I'm glad I don't have a MT4 now.

Bob

Hi Bob

To take guessing out of the equasion, can you post a picture of both the front showing the collet (or adapter) and the back end showing the draw bar.

All should become clear after that

John

Devonboy said:

Hi John,

No it's not that type of collet, I have three types, that larger one which locates straight into SK40 taper, then some which are about 120mm long which have an adaptor and the smallest which also have an adaptor that has 32mm flats on it. The draw bar is captive on the end of the horizontal spindle and is fully released and loose, the collet is out leaving the adaptor behind. I didn't think SK40 collets locked in as it's such a steep taper, not like morse. Maybe I should take the drawbar out of the spindle and find a good fit piece of round stuff to tap it out?

Bob

Click to expand...

I think I know what adapter you have, I would put the machine in one of the lower speeds and put a good fitting wrench on the 2 flats holding it in place with one hand. With the other hand I would hit the wrench with the palm to create a twisting motion. If that didn't work I would try tapping on the wrench with the mallet, remember to hold on to the wrench and adapter because you don't want them bouncing somewhere on the machine or the floor when all breaks loose.
Dan

PS. there are blind hole pullers available at a price also, most people don't have one with all the bits so they weren't originally brought up.

Hi John,

I'll get onto that tomorrow, I think I've worked out how but it's bed time here.

Bob

Hi Bob.

I had the same problem with my FP2, although mine was stuck in the vertical head.

There are two types of SK40 20mm collet adapters.

The usual one has a thread for a nut that pulls it out - nice.

But the other one has just two flats and is hard to get out. I put
a wrench (?) onto the flats and bashed it out while crtying my eyes out.

Today I would have loosened the drawbar and used that to push it out.
Or batter - pulled it directly out the front with a home made puller.

Cheers
Erik

Thanks everyone,

Last night I couldn't sleep and found a section drawing in my instruction manual which has survived in the cupboard. There is a section drawing near the back which shows that if I remove the tapered pin holding it captive, then take off the end cap I can tap the end of the drawbar. I'm sure a direct blow on the end will knock it out.

I'll let you know later.

Thanks, Bob

Hi Bob,

Devonboy said:

If I remove the tapered pin holding it captive, then take off the end cap I can tap the end of the drawbar. I'm sure a direct blow on the end will knock it out.

Click to expand...

This is a common problem, please see this thread.

I suggest you proceed as follows. There is an important step (3, below) which you have not mentioned.

(1) remove the tapered pin and nut from the top of the drawbar, as you were planning

(2) Put a collet into the adaptor and tighten the drawbar somewhat. This will fix the drawbar to the tapered adaptor

(3) Attach something solid (a vise, for example) to the mill worktable, and run the horizontal spindle up to it, so that the horizontal spindle is pushing hard against that fixed object. You want the rotating part of the spindle which is not obscured by the SK40 taper attachment to be compressed hard against the vise or other solid fixed object on the mill table.

(4) Now strike the drawbar with a copper or lead hammer

Step (3) is important because it will prevent the force of your hammer strike from being transmitted through the spindle bearings. These bearings are not easily repaired because the inner and outer races are the spindle and spindle housing themselves.

A better approach would be to use a puller which tensions against the (moving part of the) spindle face just outside the SK40 taper adaptor. Again, the goal is to keep any tension/compression/blows away from the spindle bearings. Your puller would need to have an S20x2 "buttress" thread on the end to engage into the drawbar.

In the future, get yourself a collet adaptor like the middle one in this picture. That has a nut which pulls it out. That nut bears on the part of the spindle that you need to support while pushing out the stuck adaptor. Running it up against a vise is OK, but not nearly as good as using a puller (like the nut!) which bears directly on the inner part of the spindle.

PS: please post a few pictures of your new machine!

Cheers,
Bruce

Thanks, Bruce,

That's sound advice. I was just about to rush out and start but I shall do as you wisely suggest.

I'll let you know.

Bob

Well thanks to all for the very friendly advice, I am going to mount a vice with something tall in it placed hard up against the spindle outer before I start hitting anything.

Unfortunately I've stopped for the moment because I can't lift the table up to attach it to the machine's face. I only have the heavier swivelling table, all 60kgs of it. I've just spent some time sourcing an electric hoist, 100kg capacity plus material to make a rail overhead.

I think this was designed for Bavarians, one German high by one wide.

Back in a while....!

Thanks, Bob

Bob,

That looks like a really nice mill. Nice enough that you should not bring a hammer anywhere near the spindle bearings. Instead, if you have a lathe, and a bench grinder for shaping a threading tool, I suggest making a puller.

(a) Get a piece of 20mm diameter round steel, say 6 inches long.
(b) Thread one end with a 2x20 buttress thread, to match the thread on one of your collets. The threaded portion should be about an inch long. You have to grind an HSS tool for the threading.
(c) Turn the other end of the round steel down to (say) 16mm and thread it with an M16 thread. You can do that thread with a die if you have an M16 one.
(d) Get a short squat piece of thick-walled steel or PVC pipe or tubing, with an ID that fits over the stuck adaptor, and an OD smaller than the moving part of the spindle. Length should be a couple of inches, just a bit longer than the projection of the stuck adaptor
(e) Get a steel bar longer than the OD of the pipe, say 100 x 12 x 40mm. Drill a 16mm hole in the center
(f) Now thread the buttress thread end of the rod into the drawbar as far as it will go. Remove the taper pin and upper stop from the drawbar
(g) Put the tube over the stuck taper adaptor
(h) Slide the steel bar onto threaded rod, so that the bar comes up against the tube
(i) Put a greased M16 nut and washer over the threaded rod
(j) Tighten the nut. This will pull the drawbar and stuck adaptor out without any damage or shock to the spindle bearings. Be ready to catch it as it comes out, so it doesn't ding the table or land on your toes.

Cheers,
Bruce

Bruce,

That's an excellent solution which I like even more because I won't have to lift the table up. As far as I'm concerned it's definitely a two man job.

I have sourced a winch and have a plan for a beam across my workshop which will some time to implement. Also I have to buy a phase inverter from 240v single to 415v three phase, several hundred £££'s as it's two speed. It's going to be some time before I have it running but as you say it's a terrific machine and very lucky. Another image for you.

Bob,

Congratulations on your purchase, the cabinet full of accessories is great to have. Both the vertical head and the slotting head are very useful.

If you don't want to cut a S20x2 thread, then you could probably rig something up by using an S20x2 to M16 pull stud like these: 1 Anzugsbolzen S2x2 NEU z.B. f. Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay. You might need to turn it down on the M16 side or to drill and thread it in order to make the puller. If it's not too hard to machine, that should be easy, for example you could drill and tap it M10 and then extend it with a piece of M10 threaded rod to make the puller.

Cheers,
Bruce

Okay, I think I have it now.

Since you have such a nice flat spindle end, you could:

1. Loosen the drawbar.
2. Make a rod, threaded 16mm inside one end and whatever thread you'd want at the other end.
3. Screw it onto a S20x2 - 16mm pull stud.
4. Thread it onto the drawbar inside the spindle. Now you have a grip on the drawbar, so it can push on the collet adapter.
5. Make a tube that seat onto the flat part of spindle outside.
6. A flat piece of steel the rod passes through.
7. A nut to pull on the rod, so it can pull out the adapter.....

I wish I had thought it that much through back when I had the problem...

Cheers
Erik

Thanks, Bruce,

That adaptor that you found looks perfect and it's a good price but I've looked a lot at German suppliers while Deckel shopping but they all say that they won't ship to England.

I think I'll make my own adaptor and, as you suggest, tap it M10, I have studding and taps. It'll be some time unfortunately, life's other pressures, etc.

Here are some more images:



Thanks to all for your kind thoughts.

Devonboy said:

That adaptor that you found looks perfect and it's a good price but I've looked a lot at German suppliers while Deckel shopping but they all say that they won't ship to England.

Click to expand...

The firm I pointed you to is run by Franz Singer. He ships worldwide and has a sterling reputation for high quality, long experience, honesty, and good service.


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