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One FP2 for me as well!

thanvg

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Location
Greece
Dear all in PM,

I've anticipated for long the moment when I would be able to make this post, so finally here I am: I would like to announce the switch from my little Prvomajska ALG100 to the not-so-little Deckel FP2, first gen, 500mm X!

It's been a while that I've decided to proceed with the upgrade, charmed by the FP2 features (Y power feed, rapids, horizontal quill) and work envelope and encouraged by some of you here. Problem, of course, is that where I leave it's mostly huge horizontal/vertical mills and turret mills. Actually, apart from a dear friend of mine I've never seen a euromill in real life (except mine...). After a lot of search and several failed attempts (constantly overbid, mostly in ebay.de) the right machine at the right price surfaced and I was the right guy! The machine was found in Germany.

Buying a machine this way is a bit nerve-wrecking (done this for the ALG as well). Machine had to be bought unseen and then arrangements should be made (complicated some times) to palletize/package and tranport the machine. Transport from Germany to Greece is the easy part, what is not-so-simple is to arrange for someone to visit the seller, lift the machine, secure it on a pallet, palletize electrical box and tooling and prepare everything for shipping trying to minimize risk for possible damage. Here is where I got extremely lucky, since a, now, dear friend and PM member offerred to help and take care of all this! He reinforced a large pallet (so that machine would not extend beyond the limits of the pallet) and secured the machine on it. Removed table, X hand wheel and secured them together with the electical box and the carbboard containing the tooling on a separate pallet. Here are the two pallets at the parking lot of the seller, waiting to be loaded to the truck to Greece.

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No need to say much, I'll be eternally indepted to my new friend. He took a HUGE weight off my back and helped me get closer to my dream mill, for which I'll be always grateful!

After a 5-day trip, machine arrived to my home-town. Here is a bad picture of it on the truck waiting to be taken home
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Some hours later, ALG left my workshop on the same truck that brought the FP2, here is a rare sight for where I live, two euromills on the same truck!

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And the ALG leaving. Nice mill, you'll be missed...

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Here is the mill in my workshop, after some cleaning.
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Came with some arbors:
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some clamps:
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and some 355/sk40 collets
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Also, amazingly, inside the tooling box I found the overarm support (plus drawbar and one division plate) for the indexing head, that was, indeed, missing from the indexing head I already had! Seems that sometime throughout its life the actual indexing head 'disappeared' probably with a chuck and nobody cared for the overarm. Good news for me.

It's been 3 days since I got her, but could only spend some hours trying to get here in shape. Some rough assesments are:
- This machine also did not escape the ubiquitous grease-treatment...Have a look a the oil window full of white grease
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also escaping from the X dovetail way
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would like to avoid stripping everything down, but now it seems I don't have many alternatives...

- The regular fixed table it came with, has seen better days. A couple of drill marks and huge (ranging over 3-4 t-slots) end-mill mark. It has also been reground. I'll sort the rest of the machine out and decide later what to do with the table

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- Spindle bearings sound nice but I am reluctant (and will avoid) doing much work on the machine before overhauling both of them. Already ordered proper grease from Mr. Singer.

- Spindle 'box, feed 'box and selectors, rapids all working perfectly. I am impressed by the amazing feeling of the rapid lever, such a joy to use.

- Took a light test cut on aluminum, only to find out that the machine was completely loose, at least regarding X gib. This was the case with my ALG as well, which is very strange since both machines seemed to have been used up to the sale date. I really can't see how one could use a mill with such loose ways unless only for drilling....Tightened X gib and things got to normal.

- There is something between taper and dip in the top of X slide of around 0.02 mm throughout X travel. Cleaning and adjusting affects the behavior (yesterday it was a dip, now it is more like a taper) and the magnitude (yesterday it was 0.01 mm). And that is without having checked whether the offset is solely on X or due to rock at the vertical slide as well, which has not, yet, been adjusted. So, I won't say much untill further assessment of the situation, but I think that I'll end up with some wear here and, probably, will have to do something about it.

- Machine is really dirty and oozes out brown cooland rust after practically submerging it in WD 40. Table has also a huge mark of rust/oxidation below where the vice was due to coolant. My friend says that the vice was practically stuck when he tried to remove it from the table. This is the brown rusty sweat:

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- Got some scoring at the Y way, wipers probably went out of service years ago:

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So, that's it for now. Please be prepared for some requests for assistance to, yet another, new FP2 owner! I'll (re)read forum threads again, have bookmarked some threads by Bruce (with whom, I understand we have probably similar background and identical machines) and Ross. I'll certainly come up with many questions, e.g. which of the bearing surfaces are ground and which are scraped finished so that I can directly know if I am looking at a shiny way due to wear of the scraping marks or if it was intended this way!

Nice to join the FP2 company.
Till next time,

Best regards,
Thanos
 
Thanos,

Congratulations, it needs some clean up but looks like a nice machine. What's going on in the photo showing the oil window? Probably it's just a trick of the lighting or dirt patterns but it almost looks as if there is a chunk broken off the casting below the oil window.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Hi Thanos - congratulations on joining the club ;-) You got a lot of nice kit with it.

The casting under the oil window of mine is a bit like yours - yours has a larger difference, though.
But maybe it's because of light and viewing angle.

May I ask what serial number it has? Mine has 5084 and Bruce's has a slightly lower number.

Cheers
Erik
 
Have a look here, nothing wrong with the casting below the oil window from my point of view (but it's not that I've seen many FP2s...)

You are right. I just looked at a photo, mine is the same.

Serial number 3887, it's a '64.

Mine is SN 4220, also from 1964. A lot of the machines from around then seem to have survived to the present time. Proof that they were well designed and well constructed.

So, I do have to take the vertical slide appart to clean the oil galleries from grease, don't I?

Yes, there is no way around it. And you won't feel good about using the machine or sleep right until you take care of it :D .

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Hi to all,

so, I'll keep Bruce's thread about X and Z slides removal as a reference and start taking things apart.
I also receive the spindle grease from Mr. Singer, so there are a lot in the FP2-to-do-list.

will keep you posted.

BR,
Thanos
 
To me from the photo it is not certain that grease is used
Take of that greasenipple first and see if it has grease behind it
But for a good cleaning taking of the carriage is the best anyhow
I have cleaned several
The carriage is best taken of from the top using a hoist
Loosen the back plates first and remove them only when the carriage is of the machine
One warning
If you assemle it back together make sure the keyway of the shaft is aligned properly with that special key that stays in place with a small round extension at the back of the key
These keys are hard to make (easy to buy though)

Peter
 
Welcome to the FP2 owners club, I recently brought one home myself. I wanted to get a machine of your vintage but settled on one with the motor on the back. The FP2 will surely ease some of the head space issue you had with the smaller FP1 copy especially with the long reach head.
I,m curious; Did you work out some sort of a trade-in on your old machine? Over hear is seems difficult enough to find a machine let alone finding someone at the same time to take the one it's replacing.
Dan
 
Hi to all, thanks for the replies and advice, highly appreciated.

To me from the photo it is not certain that grease is used
Take of that greasenipple first and see if it has grease behind it
But for a good cleaning taking of the carriage is the best anyhow
I have cleaned several
The carriage is best taken of from the top using a hoist
Loosen the back plates first and remove them only when the carriage is of the machine
One warning
If you assemle it back together make sure the keyway of the shaft is aligned properly with that special key that stays in place with a small round extension at the back of the key
These keys are hard to make (easy to buy though)

Peter

Thank you Peter,

- regarding grease, I am afraid it certainly is the case here. I have removed the nipples and found the holes full of grease. Used some compressed air and a string of grease came flying out of the oil window little hole. So, I am afraid I can't work around removing everything...
- Thanks for the advice regarding removing the carriage, will be helpful in the near future.

Welcome to the FP2 owners club, I recently brought one home myself. I wanted to get a machine of your vintage but settled on one with the motor on the back. The FP2 will surely ease some of the head space issue you had with the smaller FP1 copy especially with the long reach head.
I,m curious; Did you work out some sort of a trade-in on your old machine? Over hear is seems difficult enough to find a machine let alone finding someone at the same time to take the one it's replacing.
Dan

- Hi Danny, I also was after a first gen 500 mm X machine, got close to settling with a second gen but in the end this came up. Let's see how this will turn out...
Regarding the ALG, when I let a friend know that I am after a new mill, he asked 'and what about this one?', rest is history. And, by the looks of it (the way the ALG worked and the work I intend to put onto the FP2) he got a really nice machine...



So, before starting to take things appart, I would like to examine the condition of the machine so that I know what I am dealing with. It seems that I am having some issues with the height consistency of the X table. I would like your advice on this, since it is quite possible that I have not taken some aspects into account, though I don't have too many hopes that there will be some hidden trick that will make my problem disappear.

As I reported in my initial post, there is some dip on the outer edge of the X table, throughout its travel. Dial indicator was mounted near the left of the column and indicated high when the table is all the way to the right. After some thought and reading here, I discovered that rocking in Z could also be responsible for this kind of behavior, and, indeed, Z gibs had not been touched by me.

So, I put an indicator at the top left of the Z carriage and found that it raised 0.04 mm (!) with the table all the way to the right. Indicator mounted here:

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and video of the play here:


I considered this to be good news; possibly if I adjusted Z gib all my problems could, in principle, go away.

So, I removed the Z gib, to find this piece of filth:

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I hate cutting coolant!

It cleaned up like this:

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Of course, I did not welcome the pitting on the working surface, it seems that the carriage sat still for a long period, with the ways full of rusty coolant. I guess the box way will have similar marks as well...

Anyhow, I cleaned and lubed the gib, put it back in and tightened it to where Z move by hand was unconfortably tight. Locked Z.

Repeated the test with the indicator on the same position (top left of Z carriage) and needle was almost still with X moving along its travel (forgot to capture this....), which is nice.

So, I went on to measure X slide again (top surface of X table, closer to the column). Got 0.01 mm throughout X travel, with the indicator close to the middle of the column. Not perfect, but could live with this. Video B, in next post

The thing is, if I move the indicator a bit to the left, closer to the left vertical box way, I am still getting an extremely high measurement, 0.03 - 0.04 mm.

Here is the capture with the indicator on the further top of X table:

Video C in next post


Here on the X table top closer to the column:

Video D in next post

And, though I don't remember 100%, I think the last two trials were with the X gibs on the tight side...

What I have not done, is use more indicators at the same time. I.e. monitor the behavior of both the left and right side of the table (so that one can identify if we are talking about dip in X or rocking in X) and the carriage as well, to see if the top is moving still with the table weight transfer.

Had a look on the bottom of the top X table way and scraping marks were visible throughout it's length. Of course in the middle they had faded considerably, but not disappeared. I don't have any experience though to quantify this, but I think there is no big dip issue, it's more of a rocking problem.

So, if it is, indeed, rocking at the X ways, and it is noticeable even with the gibs on the tight side of adjustment, then we are talking about something not being very straight here, right? Either the X gibs more worn on their edges than in the middle, or the X ways of the Z carriage have a bow. How does this sound?

Could you please advise on the above? Best thing would be to have overlooked a step in adjustments, that, if done right, could make things better. E.g. a gib I forgot (?) or a correct order in adusting X gibs?
Also, if you have any tips on how to identify the root cause of my bad measurements, before taking everything apart, it would be great.

Sorry for the long post, I am hoping for your assistance to make this better. After all, the FP2 was not selected by the features alone, it's the precision they are famous about. Hope I can restore most of it back, with your help!

Best regards,
Thanos
 
Thanos, your machine looks in good shape considering age, condition and maintenance. I would continue along the path you are following:
- clean it up
- remove, clean, adjust gibs (2 X, Y, Z)
- study the condition of the ways, travels, accuracy, as you are doing
- remove the support, clean out grease and coolant
But then before carrying out an extensive rebuild, I would use the machine for a while. You can grind and flake the backing plates easily while the support is off, which will improve the geometry but not make it perfect.

The sort of motion that I see on your machine now looks fairly inconsequential, and with some more cleaning, lubrication and adjustment it may also improve. Eventually you might be able to make it even better, but that should not be a priority yet.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Thanos, your machine looks in good shape considering age, condition and maintenance. I would continue along the path you are following:
- clean it up
- remove, clean, adjust gibs (2 X, Y, Z)
- study the condition of the ways, travels, accuracy, as you are doing
- remove the support, clean out grease and coolant
But then before carrying out an extensive rebuild, I would use the machine for a while. You can grind and flake the backing plates easily while the support is off, which will improve the geometry but not make it perfect.

The sort of motion that I see on your machine now looks fairly inconsequential, and with some more cleaning, lubrication and adjustment it may also improve. Eventually you might be able to make it even better, but that should not be a priority yet.

Cheers,
Bruce

Hi Bruce,

thanks for the support.

Well, I see what you 're talking about. However, what I am trying to do right now, before taking the machine apart for cleaning etc, is identify the root cause for what I am seeing. This way, when everything is apart, I can, more easily, focus on the parts requiring attention and reduce the iterations required to improve the machine.
I see your point, that the assessment should be performed after everything is clean and adjusted, but I would like to have an idea, even coarse.

Also, Bruce, could you elaborate on the backing plates a bit? You are talking about X or Z backing plates? (both probably...). How could they be related to what I am seeing? By allowing rocking in a different direction that I had in mind probably....

BR,
Thanos
 
First off be sure that what you are seeing is actually what is happening...
Need to verify the "truth" of the surface you are using as a datum...Machines and their parts wear and change shape over time....
You need to verify that the testing surface is indeed flat using a qualified straight edge. Some of the error you are seeing could easily be in the surface you are indicating off...

If you adjust the gibs on the "X" axis (there are 2 on your machine plus the top plate keeper gib) to be snug at center of travel, does the slide movement get tight at each end of travel?
Same with the "Z" movement when you snug up the side tapered gib (as shown in photo above) ...Most Deckels tend to have the most wear at the upper 1/3 of the vertical travel and of course
in the center of the table travel (X). Wear will also show as higher backlash on the "X" axis screw at the center of travels...getting tighter towards the limits of movement.

Further, with grease, I think there will be little staying on the ways after several cycles of any axis...You need to get some 220 way lube to all the sliding surfaces and their feeding reservoirs.

You are correct in that you can't settle on a repair strategy until you know what all the problems are...but as Bruce points out hard to get a valid evaluation of the machine if its dirty not lubricated or
adjusted....
These are relatively simple machines and you should not he afraid to take apart a second time and deal with issues once you have gotten the machine back into proper adjustment with proper lube, a condition
i believe is necessary before a real valid geometric evaluation can be done.

Cheers Ross
 
Hi Thanos,

I agree completely with what Ross has written, particularly this point:

These are relatively simple machines and you should not he afraid to take apart a second time and deal with issues once you have gotten the machine back into proper adjustment with proper lube, a condition I believe is necessary before a real valid geometric evaluation can be done.

This is very true. Once you have taken the machine apart and reassembled it, the second time around goes much much faster. There are many reasons. You know how the parts fit and are meant to come apart, you are more confident, you have replaced damaged fasters, you have obtained or built the needed tools, the parts are clean, not glued together with 40-year-old oil that has turned to varnish, properly lubricated, etc.

I have a good example of this. The first time I took my machine apart it took me many hours spread over several days to get the X-axis lead screw and nut out. Much later, after the machine had been reassembled and was in service again, I decided to replace the X-axis lead-screw nut. It took me ONE HOUR to remove the end cap, take off the lead-screw nut, replace it and reassemble everything.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Hi Thanos,

Bruce, could you elaborate on the backing plates a bit? You are talking about X or Z backing plates? (both probably...). How could they be related to what I am seeing? By allowing rocking in a different direction that I had in mind probably....

You can see the parts that I had ground and scraped or flaked here:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...wn-reassembly-277534-post2217866/#post2217866

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...own-reassembly-277534/index3.html#post2220519

I do not know if doing the same would improve the geometry of your machine, but I know that it reduced the play in my machine, and Franz Singer said that it was worthwhile to do it.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Hi guys,

Thanks for all the advice. I am trying to find some time to do this properly, can't do much in 1hr per day workshop time and I wouldn't want to spread this over weeks.
I may have to give some attention to the head as well, since I am listening something kocking up high, probably some bevel gear bearing or the bevel gear meshing. Got the spindle grease from Singer yesterday, but don't know when I'll open the spindles for reconditioning.

Many open fronts, one at a time....

BR
Thanos
 
Hi to all,

spent some time yesterday evening at the workshop, messing around and familiarizing with the machine (before the grand operation). Reached for the oil gun, dirty on the outside. Opend the little red cap to find that, internally, it was BRAND NEW. I really hope I am mistaken and it was just drained from all these years, but it had no signs of any lube whatsoever. Din't have the mind to take a picture for you....
So, it is possible that the old lade survived on grease for the last 54 years...!

BR,
Thanos
 








 
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