Optima drill grinder pontifications.

FWIW, found out today that Optima is still in business, but their arch nemesis, Megapoint is not ! Price on new Optima is now $26,000. And that's just the base price....I wonder how much it is with all the tooling ?

Optima kinda reminds me of Monarch 10ee in that they have always been very expensive compared to alternatives, and yet there were thousands of each sold in USA over the years. Both great machines but ya wonder how so many companies justified the expense.

Just like back in the day when IBM sold the big iron, you might not need it, but no one would ever fault you for buying it, after all it was IBM. DEC, CDC, Sperry could always be second guessed.

Cheers,

--Michael

I guess you talked to the folks at Johnsons Tooling? I tried getting in contact with the Swiss Optima folks and they were less than friendly, though they did send a list of part numbers by fax (with no corresponding diagram ; the Swiss still love fax machines!). Called up Johnsons and they were extremely nice and helpful.

I imagine these machines went/go to well funded R&D shops that are part of the larger companies. Isn't that where a lot of the U.S. domiciled Deckels went?

Haven't followed the Ebay scene for them since I got mine, but it seems that only a small fraction of those that come up for sale have any tooling. Which, considering what the various chucks and collets go for from Optima make them essentially worthless.

I wish they made one for little drills, like 2mm and under; guess I should dig up a little Meteor for that.

Screwmachine said:

Haven't followed the Ebay scene for them since I got mine, but it seems that only a small fraction of those that come up for sale have any tooling. Which, considering what the various chucks and collets go for from Optima make them essentially worthless.

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Many years ago I had one without any tooling and made some sort of collet holder for it...can't remember now which collets I made it to use...but something standard like ER type...and it worked fine with that.

Still, better to have the original stuff...esp the 4 jaw chucks and the 3/4"+ collets that fit the swivel arm directly.

I wonder if anyone has ever figured out a simple cure for the drooping magnifying glass extension arm ?

I wonder how many drillbits one can buy for 26.000 $ !

Probably a fair amount, even in the largest diameter the Optima can sharpen.

The return on investment must take a certain time....

T. NGUYEN BINH said:

I wonder how many drillbits one can buy for 26.000 $ !

Probably a fair amount, even in the largest diameter the Optima can sharpen.

The return on investment must take a certain time....

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Good point...except the Optima folks would argue, perhaps correctly, that the Optima ground points are superior to any new drills...esp if the point splitter is used to advantage. The Optima brochures tout the machines as "production boosters" but offer no studies to actually prove such.

Of some humor is the actual Q&A section titled "How long will it take the Optima system to pay for itself ?" where the answer is "combining 4 machines into one (grinding, splitting, checking and correction process) the Optima is the first and only complete optical drill point grinding system with a built in comparator that will grind and point thin or split point in one setting"

And that's it.... as if that statement somehow answers the question of how long it will take to pay for itself !

Milacron said:

Good point...except the Optima folks would argue, perhaps correctly, that the Optima ground points are superior to any new drills...esp if the point splitter is used to advantage. The Optima brochures tout the machines as "production boosters" but offer no studies to actually prove such.

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That's exactly what I was thinking as I read T's post. Now if I grab a drill and it hasn't been through the Optima I stop what I'm doing and go sharpen it, even if it's brand new. The difference is astounding.

But I paid a fraction of what the current market price for what a well tooled used machine goes for. Anything over 2mm is large hole territory to me, for every hole I drill above 2mm I probably do 100 smaller- so I couldn't justify one even at a few thousand bucks. However, now that it's here, I wouldn't part with it unless someone offered a lot, like maybe half of new price. I'm hooked.

It is interesting that the Mega Point, according to Johnsons, being out of business, is still being advertised-

Mega Point Drill Point Grinder

Mega Point was started by one of Optima's largest importers in the US, Mid Am Tool. The fellow behind it all, Harold something, died a few years ago. I met him back when he was first starting up Mega Point.

Johnson's was selling both makes years ago but prefered Optima, mostly because getting parts was easier with Optima....which is just the opposite of what I would have thought. To me the Mega Point was a more impressive looking machine, but I don't see any particular functional advantages to it.

FWIW, the new Optima's are now limited to 3/4 inch capacity. I wonder if that is achieved by simply not offering the 3/4 to 1 inch collets ??

Tien,

do I take it from your "wanted" ad that you own an S11?

If so, I am majorly impressed. You must be the only one here.
I'd suggest a feature thread, please.

Martin

Could be...

Still, the "wanted" ad says a lot about the situation. I just sent you an email.

Sounds to me that "T" is building an S11 around a name plate he scored......

Cheers Ross

PS. Martin, nice to see ya..guess the rumors were wrong, you aren't dead...Whew!

AlfaGTA said:

Sounds to me that "T" is building an S11 around a name plate he scored......

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LOL... there was a guy in Brooklyn (NY) advertising a late model Schaublin 102N-VM for a long time on Craigs List...but it actually was the less desirable 102N (VM model has power feeds, etc...super rare... whereas, non VM is like Hardinge DV-59 with no power feeds...much more common)

Damed if the nameplate on the base didn't sure enough say 102N-VM, but I think it was Spud who found out the 102N lathe had been bolted to a 102N-VM base back when it was new, due to some shipping damage on the original setup. Naturally, even after this was pointed out the owner still insisted it was the VM model.

In agreement with Screwmachine, I have to say the drills I grind on my Optima are really nice to work with. They just sink through very tough stainless with very low thrust, making beautiful curly chips. I've never before been able to drill holes as round and true, with such a nice surface finish. The difference is really dramatic. I've loved having it.

As a side note, while reading about the DIN 1412 drill form, the two facet grind that the Optima does, seems like I remember that the form was developed in Germany sometime in the late 1800's to reduce drilling forces and improve hole quality for holes that were at the time being drilled in steel by breast brace! It seems very odd to me that even though the idea still works beautifully, it is largely unknown or ignored by the trades. Very few if any drill manufacturers seem to offer the grind on a new drill...certainly not without a lot of hunting around.

But if I by happenstance came across a drill that worked as well as the drills I grind on the Optima, I would be sold for life.

Kind Regards,

Don

Well I did remember this company in Switzerland who sells grinders from different makes. They have a nice video of the Mega Point but also another model from Switzerland that seems nice. No idea if they are still in business or not. Probably no cheaper than the Optima but it could be as they are using a CCD camera instead of the comparator like the Optima.

2010hph's Channel - YouTube

Charles

dgcope said:

As a side note, while reading about the DIN 1412 drill form, the two facet grind that the Optima does, seems like I remember that the form was developed in Germany sometime in the late 1800's to reduce drilling forces and improve hole quality for holes that were at the time being drilled in steel by breast brace! It seems very odd to me that even though the idea still works beautifully, it is largely unknown or ignored by the trades. Very few if any drill manufacturers seem to offer the grind on a new drill...certainly not without a lot of hunting around.

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What's your favorite type of grinding on the Optima ? You talk about two (isn't it more four) facets grind, but the machine is probably capable to produce other types of drill grinding.
Did you make some experiments before getting back to the facets grind ?

T,

Yes, I mis-spoke, it is indeed a four facet grind, two facets per lip ;-)

My favorite is the DIN 1412 Form C. The Optima is capable of different grinds including a simple two-facet grind but the machine is primarily designed to grind DIN 1412 Form A,B,C and D. Please see:

Grinding Examples

Special drill points DIN 1412

I have done quite a bit of experimenting and have made some improvements with small changes in geometry on difficult materials like stainless, but for general use the standards for Form C works best for me. I wasn't able to make any improvements for general use from the geometry settings listed in the (poorly written!) Optima manual. The manual makes certain assumptions that you really know what you're doing with drill geometries...certainly not a publication for a beginner. Obviously there is a lot to know about drill geometry. My Dad who was a cutting tool engineer taught me how to grind a drill off-hand, but that is the limit of my engineering knowledge. I've learned a lot since then by reading and experimenting.

Long story short, the standard geometry listed for 1412 Form C proved to have the best balance of hole quality, thrust force, and tool life. At this point I pretty much leave the machine set up for that and only change it if I encounter a particular problem.

Best,

Don

Thanks for your answer Don

I've read the Optima manual and I agree there's not much to learn in it.

I've been looking at pictures of the web thinning gizmo on the Optima. It is pretty funny to see all the scales and adjustements available here...

Are there basic guidelines regarding these set up, or is it a trial and error process ?
I don't seem to recall reading anything about the subject anywhere.

T,

Yes, the point splitter is a head-scratcher. You're controlling the point splitting wheel in 3-D space with something like 6 axes of adjustment. There are guidelines which I've tried to use. Sometimes they are helpful and sometimes they come out just plain wrong (ie. the splitting wheel is no where near where it should be.)

Ultimately I worked out a balance of what the manual said the settings should be and what looked (and worked) right. In Dormer's drill regrinding manual, they suggest in case of uncertainly to use a factory ground drill as comparison for regrinding setup. Please see:

http://tinyurl.com/4xdpf6e

I bought a manual for the Megapoint which is much clearer than the Optima manual, but it is by no means a panacea. I'll send it to you if you email me: dgcope [at] mac.com. Some of the details and markings of the machines are slightly different, but the principle is totally the same.

There are some real oddities on the scales on the Optima, and I have spoken to many...no one can really explain them. For example, the main point angle scale is marked off in degrees 75, 90, 116, 140...and a big gap in the scale markings where 118 is...the most oft used angle. 135 is the second most used, also not present. The primary and secondary clearance angle scale is also marked off -10,0,10,20,30,40. This scale is presumably in degrees but it can't be treated as absolute because it only reads correctly at a 180 degree point angle. Any other angle requires a "factor" for the scale to be meaningful. Rotation of the cutting arm to set point angle also changes the effective cutting angle and clearance angle.

At first, tough to wrap your head around, especially in light of crappy documentation. Time spent with the machine makes things a lot clearer. Too bad someone hasn't written a real-world user's guide that explains these oddities, ie. what is important to watch out for and what is relatively meaningless (ie. most of the adjustments on the point splitter). Hmmm, days of work to do it only to give it away...now I know why.

I've enjoyed figuring it out. It's a stunningly well-made machine and everyone who visits the shop is instantly attracted to it. "What the...what is that thing?" You've got to love the way the Swiss do things...the precision grinding, optical threads and the part fitments are just ridiculously good. Taking it apart reminded me of disassembling a microscope. Precision that is arguably unnecessary, but they don't seem to care. Obviously part of the reason they cost a mint!

Kind Regards,

Don

Interesting topic.

Several years ago I realized the need for a drill grinder in my own shop, mainly due to down time getting replacement or re-ground drills. I had also noticed the problems trusting a fresh factory ground drill, they are not always as good as they should be.

Ended up being the owner of two Christen drill grinders, they cover the .5mm thru 32mm range.

Could not find an Optima I could afford.

That turned into additional business and I now have customers that send in new drills to be re-pointed to suite their specific application. Like T, I do not run a drill unless it's been across my grinders.

But, at to-days prices these Swiss machines are listed at $62,000.00 that's a lot of drills to justify that equipment. I wonder how they stay in business.

By the way, support for these machines is excellent, comes out of the Chicago area (Jerico) and Tom knows them like the back of his hand.

Steve

Steve

Is the four facets your sharpening of choice on the 2-32 too ?
I've been lucky enough to get a 2-32 workhead a while back.

I still have to machine several parts to adapt it on another grinder.

Meanwhile, I've been reading the manual wich -as usual- is less than clear about the way it works. The infeed movement particularly, is still very strange to me.

I suppose I'll have to put it back together and play with it a little to understand.