Rescued Deckel FP1

lynxer · Jan 26, 2018

Hello guys!

I am new to the Deckel Club! I have recently purchased a FP1 that was destined for the scrapper. It needs some TLC, but I can handle that.

I have 2 issues. First is that I am missing the electrical box. Some how some where it was divided from the machine and the owner died. So I have no box.

The second issue I have is that the motor is running on 440v 3 phase. I have 220v 3 Phase.

Can I solve my 2 problems by upgrading to a 220v motor and vfd? What is my best course of action?

rbdjr59 · Jan 26, 2018

Dedicated transformer, wired in reverse if need be.

AlfaGTA · Jan 26, 2018

Did you check the wiring at teh motor...lotss of 440 motors can also run on 220....Matter of connection at the motor (delta vrs "Y"0
Cheers Ross

bentley1930 · Jan 26, 2018

Hi All,

All 440V 3 phase motors are dual voltage, if as Ross mentioned the six connections are in the terminal box then you can change the connections from "star" to "delta which will give you 220-240V. There should be instructions to do this on the inside of the terminal box lid or on the instruction sheet in the box.

The information plate on the side of the motor will show if it is dual voltage configured otherwise you will have to dig into the internal insulation to find the star point where the 3 ends of 3 the phase coils are joined. This is a skilled job as damage to the windings can occur. To have this done professionally would probably cost as much as a new Chinese motor!

Alan

Milacron · Jan 26, 2018

bentley1930 said:
Hi All,

All 440V 3 phase motors are dual voltage, if as Ross mentioned the six connections are in the terminal box then you can change the connections from "star" to "delta which will give you 220-240V. There should be instructions to do this on the inside of the terminal box lid or on the instruction sheet in the box.

If the motor is two speed 95% chance it is single voltage. There do exist dual voltage two speed motors but they are very rare. In my entire career I've only encountered one dual voltage two speed motor, which was on a Hardinge HLV-H.

As an aside, I once owned a small turret lathe with a 3 speed motor...made by Herbert in the U.K. Actually it might have been a 4 speed motor, can't remember now..just remember it was huge in physical size for the HP...like 4 hp the size of a 25 hp motor.

lynxer · Jan 26, 2018

bentley1930 said:
Hi All,

All 440V 3 phase motors are dual voltage, if as Ross mentioned the six connections are in the terminal box then you can change the connections from "star" to "delta which will give you 220-240V. There should be instructions to do this on the inside of the terminal box lid or on the instruction sheet in the box.

The information plate on the side of the motor will show if it is dual voltage configured otherwise you will have to dig into the internal insulation to find the star point where the 3 ends of 3 the phase coils are joined. This is a skilled job as damage to the windings can occur. To have this done professionally would probably cost as much as a new Chinese motor!

Alan

Hey Alan,

Thanks for the reply. Sadly I am not seeing a way to wire this motor for 220V

Maybe you can offer your opinion on this motor?

Best Regards,

Nick

lynxer · Jan 26, 2018

Sorry Can't get the darn photo to load!

lynxer · Jan 26, 2018

bentley1930 · Jan 27, 2018

lynxer said:
Sorry Can't get the darn photo to load!

Hi All,

lynxer, Milacron has a valid point, I had forgotten that the Deckels have 2 speed motors. My experience of converting a single voltage, single speed 440V motor to 220V was gained when I imported a Rapidor donkey saw into Norway. This had a geared motor on it which would be difficult to replace without a lot of work and I don`t like those electronic converters. I was able to convert the motor to run on 220v 3 phase by digging out the hidden wires in the windings to make the Delta connections.

Best to publish photos of the nameplate and the inside of the terminal box so that we can see exactly what your motor is.

Alan

Erik · Jan 27, 2018

Hi Nick.

Don't worry about that electrics cabinet. It's not really needed, it just takes up space.
I run my FP2 from a standard protection relay box. Then I'll just have to find an alternate
source for power to the light bulbs in my centering microscope...

BTW, congrats on the FP1 - I guess you didn't pay much. Come, come...we love bragging...
And nice lathe.

Cheers
Erik

Peter from Holland · Jan 27, 2018

Yes dual speed motor
Solution is eighter a transformer
Rewind old motor
New dual speed motor
New single speed motor with VFD
Take your pick
If you ever want to sell it again I would take a new 2 speed motor
You end up with a original machine and if you keep the old motor you can sell it to people with a 220 or 440volts net

Also keep in mind the Deckel originaly has no reverse Powerfeeds only work in one direktion

BTW Why are those machines hanging down from the ceiling

lynxer · Jan 27, 2018

I think it is a 2 speed 1 voltage set up.

lucky7 · Jan 27, 2018

If you want a 440v Deckel box, I have one from a FP3L I'd sell. I'm just across the line from you...

Lucky7

rbdjr59 · Jan 27, 2018

This may not pertain to this machine but if the machine has more than one motor or if it has lower voltage controls It is much easier just to use a transformer to give it the voltage that it likes. On older machines it may be problematic to start moving 50 year old wiring around without causing damage. Ask me how I know!

Milacron · Jan 28, 2018

Milacron said:
If the motor is two speed 95% chance it is single voltage. There do exist dual voltage two speed motors but they are very rare. In my entire career I've only encountered one dual voltage two speed motor, which was on a Hardinge HLV-H.

FWIW, the rare dual voltage two speed motors have 18 wires to rearrange in the junction box, rather than the usual 9 one finds in dual voltage single speed motors.

Milacron · Jan 28, 2018

rbdjr59 said:
This may not pertain to this machine but if the machine has more than one motor or if it has lower voltage controls It is much easier just to use a transformer to give it the voltage that it likes. On older machines it may be problematic to start moving 50 year old wiring around without causing damage. Ask me how I know!

While his machine has only one motor IMHO, a used transformer is always the best way to go. In my experience, no need to worry about one not working either...I've probably owned 50 used 3 phase transformers over the decades and have never has one that did not work properly. Never understood why newbies are so afraid of transformers to step voltages up or down.

Monarchist · Jan 28, 2018

Milacron said:
Never understood why newbies are so afraid of transformers to step voltages up or down.

From what keeps coming up in the PM forum?

"Informal guess" at stats we've probably never seen any need to track but;

A) Lack of confidence as to type and KVA sizing

B) Fear of less than allegedly perfect voltage matching

C) Fear they may get smoked or bitten shock-hazard-wise

D) Fear of costly shipping arrangements.

Unless PM or similar volunteers can help sort those uncertainties for those with less familiarity, many folk vote their "fears" and never try their first one.

Irony is that power to their own wall-outlet may have traversed dozens of transformers to get there, failed not once in a score of years, and even then - it isn't often a transformer fault!

Danny VanVoorn · Jan 28, 2018

If it's a factory Deckel motor I'd bet single voltage but the information plate will have that on it along with the speeds, amperage, type of duty and everything in between.
For RPC or phase perfect 220 volt power Without the cabinet you will need a high and low speed starter relay and a switch for one or the other speed plus a step up transformer.
For VFD you will need the step up transformer but may be able to get the speed range wired only using one speed on the motor.
Dan

Luke Rickert · Jan 29, 2018

Another vote for a transformer, also is that power real three phase (not from a VFD)? You should not use a VFD with switches in line, also old motors are not designed for the high frequency signal component and it will in theory degrade the insulation although I have yet to hear of this happening.

As Norway is the only country in Europe that has 230v three phase I run one big step up transformer for all my machines which are all in 400v. It works great and over here anyway, they are not expensive.

L

lynxer · Jan 29, 2018

lucky7 said:
If you want a 440v Deckel box, I have one from a FP3L I'd sell. I'm just across the line from you...

Lucky7

I would like to have a 440v Deckel Box!!! There is very little information out there to what/how I need to wire this machine. The Deckel box is quite large and I would like another option if there is one out there. What are you using on your deckel if you aren't using the box? Where in Canada are you? I am in Fargo!

Thank you all for your input!!!

NB

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