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Roadtrip and fixability assessment FP4NC

Martin P

Titanium
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Location
Germany in the middle towards the left
I had mentioned earlier that I bought an FP4NC in the spur of the moment, because it looked interesting and it was the cheapest I ever saw. This was because it had parts missing and I thought I had them in storage to make it whole again.
The seller said the y-axis servo and all scales were missing, but control and amplifier all complete.
I could have picked it up as late as November, but thinking about it I thought it better to pick it up quick, since if the machine was garbage I could back out of the sale, the seller being a dealer (Ebay rules).
In the shortness of time I did not get the truck I wanted, but a 7.5 ton Mercedes box truck with lift gate. Turns out it had no tie downs (I should have known) and the lift gate of course is only an obstruction.
When I got there the machine looked OK. The electronic handwheel was missing, but the seller found one in his stock. The tool change pendant was also missing, but I have that. The control housing was very hard to get off. Totally glued on from old dirt and dissolving rubber. I took that as a good sign and indeed the control was complete and looked unmolested. Monitor missing though, which embarrassed the seller, but it was OK for me, since I have monitors.
As expected the upper part of the full enclosure was missing. I do not have a full spare for that and also have no FP4 chip tray (I have lots for FP2 and 3 though).
Loading over the useless lift gate was exiting but it worked. By 3 pm I was back home. Unloading was much easier due the neighbors Bobcat telehandler, we call them all Monitou's over here. The Cat did raise its rear wheels initially reaching over the lift gate into the truck.
Truck fuel consumption was 14.3 l/100km doing a steady 90km/h. On the way down it was 13.5 with the truck empty.
This was all Saturday.

I am always shocked by dirty machines, but it looked much worse than it was. Initally grime removal looks promising.

I put a monitor in it and in the process noticed a burned up power supply (smokey spot). Replaced that too.
I hooked a power cord up and turned it on, the control came to life. Very blury display, which was fixed by wiping the screen off. Love those "fixes".
I turned on the power side of the machine while in mode 1, but got an error message FP17. But OK, there was still no y servo installed and all scales missing.
I looked at the batteries and THEY ARE ALL FROM 1986!!! I am dumbfounded. How can that be? Its 30 years old! How long ago was this machine put into storage? How long can a machine go with original batteries?
In the control I found an original exe hook-up, which is not needed for the NCT500 that was installed. The answer was found in the orange book, which is blue, and showed that the machine was delivered with a univeral table. Only later was the NCT added.
When they added the NCT they bought brand new Bosch cards. I have never seen these very late cards. Look expensive.

I had to flip the head. The gas shock is still strong. I'd hate to see that thing fail suddenly.

I took a short deep dive into my warehouse and for once senseless hoarding has paid off. I found the 3 missing scales ( I thought) and some of the essential small parts, like the little mounting bracket that holds the x reader head (sort of special) and the reader head holder for the y scale (also special). I still need to find the long srew for the x reader head, but I did not look for long so far.

I test fitted the scales and then the feared bummer raised its ugly head. I had parted out a non-flip head machine and that y axis scale is 50mm too short. I have a 520mm 904, but need a 570mm 904 (or possibly 404). The long y axis started at 2810-3600. This machine is 4585. Anyone know of a substitute, possibly from another manufacturer?

The blue orange book is interesting. Its the latest one I have ever seen. The machine was factory accepted in June 1987. So its a quite late D4 and it does not have an NEP board anymore. Also these FP4's had thermally protected servos? Mmmh? I hope I can put in a normal one too, because I don't think I have one of those for the y axis. It'sprobably just a switch that can be bridged.

Can a D4 be started with dead batteries? I thought not, but do not know why. What are the symptoms if one tries?

In theory the machine could still be junk, but I could break even with selling parts if I hve to. But probably it is not junk.
I was initially shocked how worn it looked, because I did not see scraping on the ways. I thought the scraping was worn away. But then I noticed the ways are ground. They look decent.
The machine was kept as a spare for other machines. The storage location was a storage tent (found a note on that). Yet what looks like rust is very superficial and easy to remove.

But now first some pictures.
 

It' s a pitty someone removed all wheel handles. I do not have spares. Why is there paint chaffing in places no-one can put his foot. I suspect chaffing from hoses.

Note TV hook-up cable from the factory on the NRP.

I have never seen a power socket in a deckel cabinet before.

-

-

Thermal Protector equipped servo. Never had one of those before. Per orange book it came on on FP4's.

New type Bosch drive.
 

Above: Someone put in a RS232 cable and routed it to the electrical cabinet. Note the TV hook-up cable from the factory. Seems to have been stock on the later machines.
Below: note the thread in the screw that clamps the head assembly. In that thread was a screw holding an additional cooling pipe. Neatly done.

The blue orange book where it should be. I like the cabinet where the control and Bosch are on the same side. I only opened this door after hours and was pleasantly surprised by the book.

- The left x axis side cover got scraped in the past. But it did get fixed. Note that the cover has no hole from the factory. Slightly earlier machine had a hole there with a plug and older machines had the longer ball screw expension covered by the FP1 plastic cover.
 
It has been a while since you have played with Deckels, right? The seller had no other intresting stuff?
 
Yes, and its horrible how much I have forgotten.
I had great fun all in all so far.
Yesterday they had "anything goes" day on the radio, playing anything a caller liked. So there was "Sweet Child In Time" in the 12 min live version followed by "Ode to Joy" in the original choir version while I fiddled on the machine. I was in the Zone.

Seller was dealer and he had lots of stuff, but almost only Deckel and Weiler.

He had an old FP3A with a retrofitted TNC124. pretty but useless.
The FP42 he also sold incomplete was also still sitting there. Could have been a good deal, but a different can of worms. And different weigh class.
 
In the Ebay add was an Maho MH600E in the background. ( that activates my old-CNC-stuff-detector) Have you seen that one?
 
I saw that but did not look at it. I did watch a guy with morbid fascination as he was strapping down his newly purchased FP2 onto a complete POS trailer. I was expecting to see him lie in a ditch on the Autobahn later-on, but did not happen.
 
Martin:
Excellent score....FP4's are on the rise ...
Would love to know more on the late Bosch drives....
What table came with the machine? Did you get the NCT with it?

Looks like your machine has a later setup on the main drive relays as well.....

Yes later "Flip" machines have longer "Y"...this is true on the FP2NC's as well...don't know about the FP3's....
I predict you are going to like that machine....
Can you elaborate on the "TV" hookup?
You stated that the control does not have an NEP board...photo looks like it does Isn't the NEP 52 the last card connected to the K10 jumper ...shows in the photo....
Or are you talking about the blank card slot at #6 for the "NEP" ? If so, to be honest i have never seen a control that had that card fitted...Even my early Dialog 4 control that does not use the
NEP 52 board did not have a card in slot #6. Or am i confused?






Cheers Ross
 


This is the card layout dated 6 Nov 1985.

In slot 8, where the NEP51 or 52 used to be, there is now an NSP. Apparently as an option. This machine has that option but still shows only 260kb memory on the screen. The screenshot picture was supposed to be a picture of the config page under 16>INFO, but I goofed up in the picture selection.

The TV hook-up is the small connector on top of the NRP card. A small white wire is routed from there to an antenna connector at the bottom of the console. This way the user can externally connect a TV. I have seen this before on an FP5 and another FP4NC. Looks like it was standard in later years.

Looking up the scale parts overview, the longer travel y axis was introduced at machine number 1300 for the FP2NC, 2500 for FP3NC and 3600 for the FP4NC.
If one would assume that the change was done around the same time that give 17% FP2, 34% FP3, 48% FP4.

I found some mention that the ventilator on the Bosch drive is used to allow for more power. This machine has that ventilator. This may go together with the 6 meter fast feed, which has different servo part numbers. Maybe that is why it has the "thermal protector".

I don't have much time, but next weekend I have to change all batteries and install a y-servo to see what happens. I'd like to know if there was a technical reason the machine got parked.

Oh, yes I did get the NCT500 with it. I'd rather have the fixed table though, in case someone wants to trade.
 


This is the card layout dated 6 Nov 1985.

In slot 8, where the NEP51 or 52 used to be, there is now an NSP. Apparently as an option. This machine has that option but still shows only 260kb memory on the screen. The screenshot picture was supposed to be a picture of the config page under 16>INFO, but I goofed up in the picture selection.

The TV hook-up is the small connector on top of the NRP card. A small white wire is routed from there to an antenna connector at the bottom of the console. This way the user can externally connect a TV. I have seen this before on an FP5 and another FP4NC. Looks like it was standard in later years.

Looking up the scale parts overview, the longer travel y axis was introduced at machine number 1300 for the FP2NC, 2500 for FP3NC and 3600 for the FP4NC.
If one would assume that the change was done around the same time that give 17% FP2, 34% FP3, 48% FP4.

I found some mention that the ventilator on the Bosch drive is used to allow for more power. This machine has that ventilator. This may go together with the 6 meter fast feed, which has different servo part numbers. Maybe that is why it has the "thermal protector".

I don't have much time, but next weekend I have to change all batteries and install a y-servo to see what happens. I'd like to know if there was a technical reason the machine got parked.

Oh, yes I did get the NCT500 with it. I'd rather have the fixed table though, in case someone wants to trade.

What is required to run the NCT500 table, will it only work on a Deckel FPNC?

I have two fixed tables, one for a FP4M and one for a FP3NC......I don't know if these are the same size for a FP4NC?

Kevin
 
The NCT500 needs its own cards in the drive (2) and an NZP card. No problem there, but the thing is so incredibly heavy, it should only be put on an FP4 or 41/42.
The FP4M table is different somehow (forget how exactly) and the FP3 table is smaller (7 vs. 8 slots and less wide).
And shipping would be a bitch.
 
Martin:
The FP4NC that i got off government auction in Canada (ser# 4030) also has the thermally protected servos....
Easy to spot even without the orange tag as the protected version is rated at 3000 RPM. Earlier versions are designed for 2000 RPM....

Thanks for the update info on the boards, so what is the result of having the "Optional NSP board?...All my stuff has the "TV" hookup...did not know that was a late update, just figured all the D-4's were so fitted...

Nice to have you posting and filling in some of our info gaps. Please keep it coming

Cheers Ross
 
I suspect shipping a 385 kg NC table all that way will be uneconomical. Of course if one of your ritzy customers is jetting their private plane for example to to Paris, I'll gladly bring it by there. Considering the heftiness, we can't even stuff it into the trunk of a car being shipped.

I kept studying the orange book and indeed it is about the 6 meter machines and the special servos. I did not think to simply look at the rpm, duh...
Let me guess, your machine then also has the fan on top of the Bosch drive for additional cooling?
I don' t think I have a spare servo like that, so I will just switch the machine to 4 m/min feed max and be done with it. I'm not so fast anyway.
The reason I got the FP17 error code (thermal protector tripped) is probably because the y-servo is not there and me turning on the machine in mode 1 with the Bosch cards pulled, still let to that error because the thermal switch does not come from the Bosch side, but from the PLC(SPS). So the error came up anyway. Except that FP17 is for the z axis and the missing servo is the y axis ..... mmmmmmh.

All machines have the connector on top of the NRP, but few also have that connector extended to a dedicated connectiong plug at the bottom of the machine.

I thought the optional NSP card would give another 256kb, but it is not shown on screen. So I am not sure, but I'll surely find out.
 
Yes, additional cooling on the Bosch drive...but not the Wizz-Bang new style you show..This machine has the 2 and gen "piggy back" cards.
And no "optional" NSP at slot #8....

Cheers Ross
 
I kept studying the orange book and indeed it is about the 6 meter machines and the special servos. I did not think to simply look at the rpm, duh...
Let me guess, your machine then also has the fan on top of the Bosch drive for additional cooling?
I don' t think I have a spare servo like that, so I will just switch the machine to 4 m/min feed max and be done with it.

.

Martin:
There are an additional 2 wires at the servo for the 3000 RPM motors....On mine those wires are large like the power for the servo (#5 & 6 i think).and are connected to the
servo wiring through a 2 lug in line small terminal block....Betting you can "trick" the machine by jumpering that block to connect the two larger black wires together....
those wires must go to the control directly as they do not run through the Bosch unit.
Cheers Ross
 
I have found the Siemens Instructions Manual on the servos. It has the schematics and clearly shows the way everything is connected incl. the thermal protector. It says in the manual "a temperature monitor is fitted to special order". Yet it is not shown in the parts explosion diagram.
Anyway I got this covered now and have also ordered the electronics stuff to tune the Bosch amplifier piggy back card.

I have also found the Deckel service bulletin on the SW change of the D4, introducing the "option" to get 512KB (a younger person reading this will probably think I mean MB or GB:rolleyes5:).

 
Nice to have the larger memory...will it accept more than 9999 blocks of code with the "Option"....

A bit more involved, but i will stick with the DNC option....Unlimited program size, unlimited number of blocks . :D

Cheers Ross
 
I had some more Deckel-Zen time on the machine this Saturday.

Since the 6m/min y-servo is missing (3000rpm) I wanted to replace it with a 4m/min servo (2000rpm).
This seems easy and straight forward. As I was mounting the servo I noticed that the belt would now not fit and be way too long.
It turns out that on the flip head machine Deckel used new pulley diameters. Now there is a size for the FP3 and one for the FP4.
Previously it was all the same (FP2NC part). Since I do not have flip head spares I now had to use all non-flip head parts on the y-axis.
On the y-axis this seemed tricky concerning the removal and the fit of the upper pulley. It seemed tight. So to make it easier I just put the x-servo on the y and on the x-axis I mounted my spare non-flip head servo plus the corresponding pulley. I do not like to mix up configurations, but after checking on servo prices I saw no alternative. Wiring up the servos, I always dislike the tight spaces in the connection boxes and the piss-poor labelling, but I got it done.
I could not yet mount the x-axis servo because I cannot find the M6x120mm screw to mount the bracket.
For the y axis I do not have the correct scale. During checking on prices I had a fiduciary toxic shock which made me borderline catatonic until I found an LS904 in Hungry for 275€. This one is too long, but I think they can be shortened. Lots of money, but still way cheaper than the usual suspects offerings. I should get it by next week end.
I ordered scale lips from Singer. If someone thinks the lips are a tight fit, then you have the wrong ones. Singer sells the "correct" ones that slide in smooth and easy. Singer is also sending me the missing M6x120mm screw, as otherwise I'd have to order a 20 pack from somewhere. I could not make myself order the missing x axis bellows from Singer. I have the feeling prices went up dramatically and they are really too expensive.
I wanted to boot up the machine power side to check for spindle noise, gear changing lube a.s.o., but it would not start up and I did not get a green light on the Bosch. I pulled the power board and it had a nice big hole in the transistor. Since I had a green light on initial start of the machine, this probably happened on my first start-up, though I saw no smoke. Its a mystery. I have lots of spares though and "fixed" by swapping it.
I started the machine up with the axis cards pulled and went through all gears. Shifting is very good, the time interval between the KUSA bumps seems a bit longer than I remember, but it works great.
Even after some run time to distribute the oil, there seems to be too much oil in the machine. The sight glasses are almost to the top. I hear a lot of gear sounds, but cannot say if it is too much or not. But there are no gears more noisy than others, so its not like they ran it only at top speed and those gears are worn, while others are not.
During unloading I had killed both hydraulic/lube hoses to the head. I replaced those with used spares and clamping is fine after bleeding. I think I still have to bleed the lube line I think
The spindle tapers were very dirty, but cleaned up nicely.
I soldered in new batteries I had mail ordered from France some time ago. Now I no longer have to do a reset after each start.
I hooked up the NCT500 and did not get a signal on the read out. By now it was 11 p.m. and I did not investigate much. Also because the table is so heavy to move. But when I got the machine, the bottom access hatch to the NCT was removed. Possibly there was a problem with the table that led to the de-commissioning of the machine. I will see.
Maybe I should not publicly admit to my brain farts, but I have to laugh about my own deficiencies. Anyway, I was trying to figure out which tables I should have, and which not. There was some dealing, wheeling and trading in the past and I know I had bought a fixed table some years ago as a target of opportunity at a machine dealer, but I was sure it was an FP3 table. It was laying dusting in some shelf and it was cheap, so I bought it, although I came for something entirely different. A nagging uncertainty led to me scaling my own shelf to check it out and behold, it had 8 slots. So I actually have an FP4 table in stock as a spare! Now, if could only find those Gold bars I also remember distinctly.

I think I can get more Deckel-Zen time in next weekend. Shortening a Heidenhain scale may get exciting. Anyone ever done that and lived to tell about it?

I took pictures of this weekends fiddling, but still need to find a cable to upload them.

Martin
 








 
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