Schaublin E25 collets and holder for a Deckel FP2 mill

ballen · May 21, 2017

I recently got a collet set and holder which fit my 1964 FP2
mill. The collet holder is made by Schaublin and carries part
number 161-339. From what I can find in the internet, the
collets appear to be a type called E25 (NOT ER25). The ones I
have have a lot of slits and cover the sizes 2-2.5mm, 2.5-3mm,
3-4mm, 4-5mm, ..., 19-20mm. There is also one collet which has
just three slits and is for a 10mm shaft, not for a range of
sizes.

I have a few questions about these.

(1) Do these E25 collets have advantages or disadvantages (extraction?) compared with ER25 collets?

(2) The SK40 taper on the holder had some dings and burrs that I
filed off. Since the taper on my spindle is in good shape, is it
a bad idea for me to use a less-than-perfect tool inside the
spindle taper, because it will mess it up? (I tend to think that
if I have removed the high points from the tool, it should not do
any damage to the taper, but I would like to know if others think
otherwise.)

Cheers,
Bruce

Luke Rickert · May 22, 2017

Those are the precursor to ER collets, the only difference I know of is that they lack the ejection ring grove which apparently can be a real problem.
If you can file off the burrs that would imply the holder is not hardened which is surprising for Schaublin but it isn't going to do anything bad to the spindle anyway which is presumably hardened. Just give it a try, if the run-out is good then it should work just fine although it could be hard to remove the collets from the holder.

Luke

AlfaGTA · May 22, 2017

Take a "print" of the taper contact using blue to be sure that you have the dings dealt with and that the overall contact of the holder is good with your spindle......

As to the e525's...harder to use (don't eject well) and generally more expensive...(fewer sources)
But if you have a set and they are good...run them....

Cheers Ross

ballen · May 22, 2017

Ross, should I blue the tool or blue the spindle taper? Which type of bluing? Cheers, Bruce

AlfaGTA · May 22, 2017

Test by coating both surfaces (one at a time of course)...Coating on the inside of the spindle will show high spots on the holder more easily.
Good holder contact will be best shown by coating the holder and testing in a clean spindle bore....
Use a very light coat of non drying "Prussian Blue" ...Over here the stuff made by Dykem seems best...but i am sure there are others...
I use a piece of closed cell (white) packing foam as an applicator....a dob of the blue on the edge and then use that to spread the coating over your holder.
Needs to be very light...should see the shine of the base steel through the coating.
Insert the holder into your spindle, and give is few short back and fourth turns while applying pressure to keep the holder seated.
High spots on the holder will be wiped clean and be shiny...should see a good solid pattern in the spindle.....along the total length that the holder touched....

Cheers Ross

Monarchist · May 22, 2017

ballen said:
Which type of bluing?

AFAIK, "Dykem" is available in the UK.

Otherwise, I get my "Stuart's Micrometer..." tins in blue, black, and red from Cromwell's.

Danny VanVoorn · May 22, 2017

It looks like checking the taper is covered by others but that chuck has me thinking. It looks to be a bit shorter than most ER chucks available and although not familiar with ER25 collets(is that a size offered?)I only have ER11, ER16 and ER32 sizes. I don't know for sure but it is possible that Schaublin didn't alter the size and only added the groove for extraction with the ER type collets. If so you may find an ER nut and ER collets fit directly in that chuck, think that would make a real desirable set up especially for an FP1 with limited head space.

Monarchist · May 22, 2017

Danny VanVoorn said:
It looks like checking the taper is covered by others but that chuck has me thinking. It looks to be a bit shorter than most ER chucks available and although not familiar with ER25 collets(is that a size offered?)I only have ER11, ER16 and ER32 sizes. I don't know for sure but it is possible that Schaublin didn't alter the size and only added the groove for extraction with the ER type collets. If so you may find an ER nut and ER collets fit directly in that chuck, think that would make a real desirable set up especially for an FP1 with limited head space.

IIRC, for ER series the number is the collet body length in mm, not the diameter.

AFAIK, there were more differences between E and ER (E Regofix) than JUST the snap-ring groove that added ease of extraction.

If specs cannot be found, ER25 is a stock ER size. Purchase of one collet and a nut will tell the tale. "Oriental" one would do for a low-cost fitment check.

If you need to change it out, I'd go for TG series. Half the collapse range of ER, roughly 1/2 mm steps, so twice as many collets are needed to cover the same range.

Even so, that is not a huge count of collets. For a mill, you probably need several of a few sizes, some of those even 'limited collapse' or 'on-size' ones (think solid-carbide shanks, taps, etc.), and not the entire range, anyway. TG actually do grip better than ER.

AlfaGTA · May 22, 2017

Also beware...Schaublin used 19.6 mm thread (?????) for some of their draw bars....need to be sure the pull up end is compatible with your Deckel draw bar.

Deckel did make their own front closing collet setup for the 40 taper spindle machines...uses a collet similar but somewhat shorter than a TG 100. Difference is that the
one Deckel used has an outward step at the termination of the front/steep taper to work with the extraction ring in the nut...(can't remember what that style collet is called, maybe someone can fill in my blank)

That setup also has dogs on the holder to engage the Deckel spindle and prevent rotation/slippage....
Cheers Ross

ballen · May 22, 2017

AlfaGTA said:
Deckel did make their own front closing collet setup for the 40 taper spindle machines...uses a collet similar but somewhat shorter than a TG 100. (can't remember what that style collet is called, maybe someone can fill in my blank

Ross, if that's the collet that I brought you, it's an OZ type. Cheers, Bruce

Erik · May 23, 2017

I have both ER and OZ collets with SK40 chucks.

A Swiss ER25 set for grinders, a full OZ16 set and the most useful sizes in OZ25.

All three chucks are new, because the ER collets came boxed with a strange 4MT chuck
and I got the OZ16 with a 2MT chuck (came with my Primus lathe). I found the OZ25 collets
on eBay - they have a thread in the bottom part for old type end mills.

I prefer the OZ collets, they look like they grip harder on end mills.

Cheers
Erik

Luke Rickert · May 24, 2017

Monarchist said:
IIRC, for ER series the number is the collet body length in mm, not the diameter.

AFAIK, there were more differences between E and ER (E Regofix) than JUST the snap-ring groove that added ease of extraction.

Any idea what these could be? I did a bunch of research trying to figure out what collets Schaublin used in the 13 high-speed head I acquired and everything I could find said the geometry was the same between E and ER. That said my mystery collets are distinctly E like in construction but with different angles.

Luke

j lewis · May 24, 2017

The E is about 1mm longer OA than the ER. E type can be difficult to release.

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Schaublin E25 collets and holder for a Deckel FP2 mill

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