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Schauiblin 13 vertical table reassembly and drive adjustment?

Luke Rickert

Hot Rolled
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Location
OSLO
Hi all I removed all three axes from my 13 to clean the clogged oil passages, a sticky x axis lock (corroded)and to and address a control issue with vertical movement (it won't stay engaged thanks to a sheared pin).

Now that I am putting it back together there is a problem. I can't seem to get the vertical gears to sit in neutral. So this means it is always partially engaged in the vertical drive and the level always bumps around when you turn the Z axis handle. The holes for the bolts that hold the control level onto the machine are oversize, presumably to allow adjustment but I can't seem to get it right. Has anyway dealt with this?
I don't think there is anything in the manual although I find the technical German a bit daunting so it is possible. (I will attach a scan)
2018-01-16 18-52_page_1.jpg

thanks

Luke
 
Hi Luke,

I don't think there is anything in the manual although I find the technical German a bit daunting so it is possible. (I will attach a scan)

Here's a translation:

The vertical slides contain the transfer mechanism for the
automatic feed. The right lower mounted lever (13-3173) alllows
the choice of feed mechanism in the vertical or horizontal level.
It switches on the appropriate clutch via a rod. Shut off can be
done by hand as well as automatically via the stops, which for
the vertical motion are on the right side and for the horizontal
motion under the horizontal slides. This brings the
level (13-3173) into its null position.

In order to move the vertical slides by hand, the
handwheel (13-3722) must first be engaged in the axial direction.
A pressure spring assures that this will be disengaged as soon as
the handwheel is released.

The scale wheel (13-3261) can be fixed using the locking knob on
the wheel-hub.

Of the locking handles mounted (13-3237) beneath the slides, the
left one serves to lock the vertical movement and the right to
lock the horizontal movement. The clamps act on the tapered gib
strips. By turning nuts (22-513) the locking handles can be
adjusted, after loosening the locking screws (DCMB M5x8).

On the left side of the vertical slides a 22mm diameter hole is
available for mounting a spoked wheel. To work with this
acccessory the horizontal lead screw nut must be disabled.

For this the horizontal slide must be moved completely to the
right and then the locking screws (CCM M12x35) loosened. Now the
slide can be driven leftwards by hand. The use of the spoked
wheel will reduce the horizontal motion by about 55mm. The stop
screw (13-3737) on the right under the horizontal slide must be
screwed into the threaded hole found further to the left.

The vertical spindle is protected from chips and coolant with a
hard anodized telescoping tube.
 
Thanks for the translation, it certainly doesn't mention anything about this issue (as I thought).

I will make sure there isn't a mention of reassembly somewhere else in the manual. Since posting I have been playing with OCR and google translate and actually have had some good luck with it (with German)so if I find something else that looks interesting I can probably get it translated myself along with my basic understanding.

This problem has me good and stumped. The I have fixed the problems I set out to (the x slides smoothly now, the locks work correctly and the direction lever stays firmly in position) the only remaining issue is that vertical position selector isn't quite where it should be. I have taken the whole machine apart a few times now and don't relish the idea of doing it again. I really need an overhead crane :) When the vertical table is on the bench it is possible to position the selector fork so that it centers the vertical selector dogs and and allows the horizontal and vertical to be decoupled but I see no good way of adjusting it beyond small movements of the selector housing.

Any ideas would be appreciated.
Luke
 
AFAIK, there's no provision for adjustment of the z feed mechanism on the 13.

The dog clutch is actuated by a shifting fork.
The fork itself is actuated by a small lever with a roller engaging in some kind of a slot.
You can see the fork in the lower left corner of the pic below.
The lever position is defined by three notches (up/neutral/down) machined in it and a detent ball.

Schaublin 13.jpg

In that design, I can't think of any part that could be mounted the wrong way.
That's on my older machine.

I know hat there has been another simpler design where the fork was not guided by an axle like on my machine, but directly held by the lever (see below, lower left corner).

Schaublin 13 feeds mechanism.jpg

Is it possible that the button that engages the shifting fork in the lever wouldn't be perfectly centered so that it could result in a different height of the fork if mounted one way or another ?

Not much you can do really, beside making sure you put all the parts and bits the right way.

More food for thoughts found on the net :

"z" dog clutch and bevel gears.
It would not be possible to alter the height of the bevel gears without running into serious trouble with the z handwheel so your problem most likely isn't here.

schaublin179b-jpg.91299



The whole mechanism.
One can see the three notches that define the different positions of the lever that holds the shifting fork.
No adjustment possible.

89743



The "z" shifting fork is clearly not symmetrical. Is it possible to mount it either way on the lever and if so, does it make a difference ??
That I don't know, and the manual nor the picture don't tell us...

89744
 
Thanks TNB

Mine is a little bit different SN 226418 I haven't asked Schaublin for the record so I don't know when this machine was made.


There is a roller and a track but it turns out no sort of adjustment.

IMG_20180118_101429655.jpg

this interacts with a slot in the fork

setscrew.JPG

IMG_20180117_162512227.jpg

IMG_20180117_162457593.jpg

There is a setscrew in the photo but it is tapered and goes into a hole in the control rod.


Maybe tomorrow I will do a full disassembly of the gear train and see if I can figure out the problem. If there is no adjustment then something must be worn or broken. The confusing thing is I didn't take it apart any further than you can see in the photos (other than fixing the broken roll pin in the selector lever). The fact the pin was broken would indicate that there was some sort of crash etc with the lever but I am not sure what other than breaking the pin it could have done.


Luke
 
This is more or less the same design as on my machine.
The tapered pin nor the set screw have no play in the definition of the height of the shifting fork.

As I told you, I strongly doubt there could be a problem with the gear train.
The position of the bevel gears height is necessarily fixed and defined by the location of the gear for the z handwheel.
Should there be a problem here, you would immediately detect it with the handwheel action.
That would translate into too much or too little play.

I don't think you have any choice but taking the saddle off the machine, remove the cover plate and see what's going on in there... As Richard likes to say, "play detective"...;)
 
The fork and/or guide rods are probably the issue. If I move the fork by hand it can go to the correct position so there is nothing preventing that and yes I think the gears themselves are just fine. It is the "timing" that is off somehow. Maybe wear on the parts although that wouldn't explain why it worked before I pulled it apart. I have not yet disassembled the fork etc but will do it tomorrow or this weekend and hopefully that will provide some info (I have played lots of detective and assembled and disassembled this thing half a dozen times so far but can't handle lifting the parts up again today :)

In my experience when something goes wrong with these machines other people have had the same problem before and it is well documented online. This is at least with the 135 lathe but I can't find this sort of info for the 13 mill. There are certainly some less than ideal design elements (particularly when combined with water based coolants) but nothing obvious other than the noisy straight gears :)

It makes sense this mechanism wouldn't be adjustable. It just doesn't make sense it would go out of "adjustment" :) The machine in general doesn't show that much wear but at some time Schaublin changed the design a bit so perhaps there were some problems.

Luke
 
There are certainly some less than ideal design elements (particularly when combined with water based coolants) but nothing obvious other than the noisy straight gears :)

Don't be impatient.
These will reveal themselves the day you begin to figure out how to install a DRO on your machine (in a clean way, that is)... :D
Especially on the x axis.

I'm currently working on the installation of Heidenhain scales on my old machine.
She was clearly never intended to be fitted with such things and... it shows !
 
I mounted my Newall X scale along the bottom edge of the vertical table, that actually works just fine and should work with "normal" scales as well although the standard stops might need to be changed. I am going to remount the Y and Z as I am not happy with how I did that before. Then the Newall is much easier to mount than a flat scale type. (I am a big fan of Newall for this reason among others) as you don't need continuously flat supporting structures, just two placed you can make a hole, or even one for small travels.

L
 
Ok I just saw your post and pictures of the installation of the Newall on the 13.

The Newall scales seem to be muuuuuuuuuuuch easier to fit than Heidenhain ones, even the smaller LS303 I used.
Sure looks like the ability to mount them single ended is a blessing in tight areas.

I had to do a fair bit of machining to install the x and z scales while retaining the ability to use stop dogs on the 13...
At first, it really looked impossible to fit the x scale the conventionnal way (under the carriage) since the required length for the stop dogs system exceeds half the overall lenght of the carriage.
And the remaining free length is not enough to cover the travel and last but not least, the fixed stop on the casting of the feed lever and the trip lever get in the way...:crazy::nutter:

I'm not totally finished, but all the problems are now solved.
 
here is a little video of the issue.
Shared album - Luke Rickert - Google Photos

it isn't very good video but I think it shows the problem. I thought the fork was bent but it would need to be out by something like a 1 or 2 mm's which it definently isn't (more like a few hundredths when I measure it). If I apply a bit of force shift the fork "Up" as shown in the video then everything works as it should. The position of the two gears is set by the drive pinion (from the handle) so that isn't going to change. the selector mechanism is also fixed so any adjustment would need to be in the fork or roller arm.

I can't come up with an explanation of how it could be that far out. There is no sign of damage or even significant wear anywhere. I don't think there is anyway I could have left out parts or put it together incorrectly.

I find it strange that the side to side selector is adjustable while the vertical isn't. I am thinking I am going to have to make a part that I can adjust. I might replace the little arm with a roller on the end with a new one that adjusts the position of the roller with a pair of elliptical bushings. I could also make the detent positions adjustable which might be more straight forward with a small plate I could add to a new arm.

I could also make a totally new fork with a dovetail to move the position back and forth or some such craziness but that requires my mill which isn't really usable at the moment.

I keep thinking I am going to have an oh sh#" moment and figure out what is wrong but apparently not.

L
 
Luke, I don't have one of these mills so have not followed this. So the following might be stupid. But is it possible that the part that moves axially inside the bevel gears was installed the wrong way around? Or did you never remove that part? Cheers, Bruce
 
That, and I seem to recall that the dogs are separate parts from the bevel gears.
Is it possible that they wouldn't be properly seated so that their height (the one below especially) would be altered ?
 
I still don't know what exactly what went wrong but I think I have a solution. I made a new actuator arm that allows me to adjust the position of the roller. The machine is back together and I have it working well enough that I can make a new arm in tool steel with a better mechanism. I made the first arm without a mill which was a pain. It appears that there is some wear and denting in fork slot. The position tolerance is the fork is very small so it possible that was enough to cause problems. I also made the new roller a little oversized to reduce the slack in the system.
This picture shows the new and old arms.
Shared album - Luke Rickert - Google Photos

Luke
 
Finally finished my new adjustable arm. It uses a roller mounted on a dovetail with a pair of opposite facing set-screws to adjust position and there is a bolt that goes through the center axle to further retain the wheel. To get the feeds to be perfectly adjusted it needed to be within a few 10ths of a mm. Too far down the vertical doesn't entirely disconnect and too high it won't stay connected.

Everything is made from hardened tool steel other than the brass nut you can see on top so it should last a good long time. I might need to take it apart and loctite everything but so far it seems to be working well. One strange thing I found is that the pin in the shaft on the original part is not drilled in the center of the shaft, it is close but not quite.

IMG_20180213_140543946.jpg

IMG_20180212_172548080.jpg
 
Hi Luke,

FTo get the feeds to be perfectly adjusted it needed to be within a few 10ths of a mm. Too far down the vertical doesn't entirely disconnect and too high it won't stay connected.

The part looks nice, I am glad your mill is working again. But it would be very surprising if the feed control design requires tuning the position of the roller to within tenths of a mm. So I still suspect that something got mis-assembled when you put it all together. Just don't throw away the old fixed arm, perhaps in the future you will have the machine apart again and understand what's wrong.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Hi Luke,

The part looks nice, I am glad your mill is working again. But it would be very surprising if the feed control design requires tuning the position of the roller to within tenths of a mm. So I still suspect that something got mis-assembled when you put it all together. Just don't throw away the old fixed arm, perhaps in the future you will have the machine apart again and understand what's wrong.

Cheers,
Bruce

I think it is a wear/crash problem. The slot in the fork where the roller rides has some dents and is a bit loose etc which I suspect is the core cause. The pin was sheared and before I took it apart as I was getting some strange behavior (both axes feeding as once) so I am fairly sure it was not an assembly error. I can pull the fork without dismantling the machine so perhaps one of these days when I am board I will make a new one and then put the original arm back in. Right now however rebuilding my "big" lathe is a higher priority among many other things :)

Luke
 








 
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