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time for a new lathe, but which one?

ballen

Diamond
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Location
Garbsen, Germany
My Logan 10" has served me well but I've decided that the time has come to get a better lathe. The Deckel/Euro-mill group here has a lot of experience and good taste in machine tools, so I'd like your advice about specific lathe models to look for. Here's what I have in mind:

- Price (presumably used, in very good condition) under 10k Euros including 3 and 4 jaw chuck, steady, follower, DRO

- Center height at least 150mm = 6"

- Center-to-center length of at least 600mm = 24"

- "Toolroom" precision (~1 ton)

- Spindle bore at least 35mm = 1 3/8", capable of holding 5C collets in nose

- Spindle camlock or DIN 55022/55027 or similar, not threaded

- Spindle bearings and gearing lubricated via oil bath/pump system

- Speeds up to 2000 rpm (2500 or 3000 would be better)

- Flame- or induction-hardened bed

- Long enough compound to cut standard 40 and morse tapers or available taper attachment

- Powerful enough (at least 3hp/2kW) to cut down steel rapidly and smooth/massive enough to get fine finishes

- Can cut both standard inch AND standard metric threads via gearbox shifters, without adding/swapping change gears

- Vary speed via gearbox and back-gear shifters or continuous variable pulley system, not by swapping belts on pulleys

- Nice operating "feel"

- Integrated coolant collection and pump

- Automatic or one-shot lubrication system for the ways

Nice to have:

- Designed to mount 3-axis DRO (ie, including compound)

- Parts easily available in Germany either from manufacturer or from a large base of machines circulating on ebay and similar

- Operates from standard German 400V 50Hz 3-phase power.

Is there anything out there that satisfies all of these requirements?

Moderators: I'd understand if you want to move this thread to another forum, but I was really hoping to hear from people here that I know and trust.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
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Bruce -

Some years back I had a list of requirements very similar to yours. I didn't get everything on my list but close enough. The lathe I ended up with was a Smart & Brown 1024.

The requirements not fully met were:

1) 6" centre height. Very nearly but slightly short by most definitions.

2) Flame hardened bed. Not hardened but a bed with such massive ways for its size may make this requirement moot.

3) Metric and inch threads without swapping gears. Very quick and easy to do, but I tend to stick with one standard through a project.

Everything else in your main list was met or exceeded. 5C collets directly in the spindle is a big plus for me and I would not compromise on that. A good DRO and geared metric inch dials are also a big plus. I fitted a VFD which gave me the continuously variable speed. I have used this feature more than I expected.

Parts availability is a difficult one. I can get parts but the price is problematic. The same is true for most machine tools unless you want a very recent Far Eastern model. (I don't think they would meet your requirements - not a serious suggestion;) )
 
For someone self teaching this whole machining discipline, can you better explain what is meant by: "Toolroom" precision (~1 ton). I get the Toolroom part but the 1 ton is an uncertainty. Why is 1 ton tied to a precision lathe?
 
I knew somebody who was so impressed with the cutting (1/4" depth) on a Graziano, so he bought four of them. They are nice. This is coming from a Hardinge owner.
 
Dear Billmac,

Thanks for responding!

Some years back I had a list of requirements very similar to yours. I ended up with was a Smart & Brown 1024.

I did not know about that lathe, and did some reading. It looks like a nice machine, but seems to have the same issue as the Weiler Condor (need transposing gear for metric/inch changes, and I can't tell if there is an automatic or one-shot lubrication system for the ways.

However I have never seen one for sale in Germany, and a world-wide search only turns up one machine of indeterminate condition on ebay.co.uk. So it would seem that a Weiler Condor would be a better choice from this perspective.

Regarding far-east machine tools, indeed there seem to be a number of 12x24 and 12x36 lathes that on paper meet all of my requirements, but digging into the guts of my FP2 has spoiled me. I like high quality and high precision on the inside. I am sure that some of the far-east tools satisfy that requirement, but I can't tell which ones.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
'Second generation'. The Cazeneuve HBX 360 BC.

Hasn't been out of production all that long. Company is still making lathes, too. CNC, but.. with manual capability.

http://www.cazeneuve.fr/machines-en/optica-lathes

Repair parts? Just ring them up and ask first. Cheap enough phone call.

UPDATE: Took only one-third of my own advice;

Did 1/3: Rang Don and bought his HBX-360-BC

NOT 1/3: AFAIK it is the older gen One, not gen Two unit.

NOT 1/3; I did NOT think to call Cazeneuve in France, first.

OTOH, several threads on PM 2012-2013 had covered it, and it did not appear to need much in the way of parts anyway.
 
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Hi Erik,

Thanks for writing. (I was hoping you might have a spare lathe to sell me!)



This is currently the lathe at the top of my list, though I fear it might not satisfy a couple of my points. But I would be grateful if someone more familiar could confirm or correct these:

- In spite of what the lathes.co.uk web site says, I think the lathe is normally delivered with either a metric or inch lead screw. So to change between metric and inch threading on the same lathe, one needs to insert/remove a 127/120 or similar transponding gear from the drive train. This also seems to be indicated on the threading table on the lathe itself, where it shows the setup of stud/drive gears on the table. So it's not just shifting levers.

- I don't see any sort of automatic system or single-pump system for lubricating the ways. The Weiler Matador manual (short-bed version of the Condor) lubrication diagram shows a dozen ball-oilers or nipples on the support/cross/compound ways with instructions to give them 3 or 4 pumps with an oiler each day.

Apart from these two points, I think it meets all of my requirements. The second point is important because I think it's much more likely that a used machine will have low wear if the way lubrication was not dependent on the operator.

Cheers,
Bruce
I don't know about the Weiler line but transposing gears for changing from inch to metric is not required on some of the modern lathes. I'm thinking some of the newer Weilers and Schaublins would have both inch/metric quick change boxes. I have a fairly late model Harrison M300, sure they either have an inch or metric lead screw depending on what market it was ordered for but the gearing is right on the change levers. The only time I would need to move gears if I wanted to cut 7 TPI or less and 4 MM pitch or more. I'm not trying to sway your decision on what to buy, my point is you may want to look at a lot of different makes and models before deciding what you want to spend your money on. I don't know of a lathe other than the Hardinge hlvh/m that takes 5C collets direct in the spindle, I have a 5C speed chuck, Royal lever closer that uses a 5C adapter, Jacobs rubber flex chuck and collets and a Prat Burnerd key operated chuck all for that one lathe. I'm pretty well convinced that no mater what lathe I bought I would have some work a-rounds?
Dan
 
I have a line on a sweet, sweet, Angelini MAS 165, but it is over on this side of the pond, too bad! 3 hp, no taper attachment though, not that it matters...
 
I have a fairly late model Harrison M300, sure they either have an inch or metric lead screw depending on what market it was ordered for but the gearing is right on the change levers.

There's been a Harrison M400 for sale locally...damn, what a sweet looking machine, 16x40, inch/metric, etc...but it weighs 2-ton. :D

I would think a Schaublin 125 would be an excellent fit for Bruce, if it's not too small.
 
seems to meet all of the other requirements though, perhaps it would be worth searching locally for that brand? (Angelini 165) only thing seems to be not as fully "geared up" as it could be without having to swap change gears for some threads, metric/inch. (DP-modular, not so much..) speed goes to 2450 I think, nice right side of apron mounted lever for forward/reverse. spindle bore only "OK" at D1-4.. and only 1700 lbs.. this one has steady and follower, 6 jaw, no collets, hardened ways, no perceptible wear ridge on bed, very low hours, maybe worth thinking about putting it in a shipping container.. just crazy talk..!

find one over there...
 
Is there anything out there that satisfies all of these requirements?

I would suggest a small VDF lathe like the Heidenreich&Harbeck 18RO 21RO or 24RO or the Hanseat 480 Hamburg 430 series. ( a nice one just popped up on Ebay) Or the smaller Boehringer, like this one: https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/doe-he...651fa109c354bbabe740c1b&previousPage=lr&pos=9 (not mine but very very close to me, is in real good condition)

They are offcourse a bit larger than the everage toolroomlathe. Do you have room for this?
 
'Second generation'. The Cazeneuve HBX 360 BC.

This looks like a neat lathe, I didn't know about them. But after spending some time reading on PM and the web, I want to stay away from this. Why? I need a lathe, not another project. And this seems to add a lot of complication (hydraulic operated variable speed drive) and special parts plus extra pumps and controls.

Also, it seems that a phone call to Cazeneuve is cheap, but the factory parts are extremely expensive.

But it does look like a great lathe.

Cheers,
Bruce
 
Hi Dan,

Thanks for your comments!

I don't know about the Weiler line but transposing gears for changing from inch to metric is not required on some of the modern lathes.

Could someone here please confirm that inserting/removing a transposing gear by hand IS needed to go between inch/metric threading on a Weiler?

I'm not trying to sway your decision on what to buy, my point is you may want to look at a lot of different makes and models before deciding what you want to spend your money on. I don't know of a lathe other than the Hardinge hlvh/m that takes 5C collets direct in the spindle.

I am looking around, that's why I am asking for advice.

The Weiler Condor lathes have a MT5 taper inside, and Franz Singer sells an adaptor that rides inside this and takes 5C collets: Spannzangenaufnahme MK5 - 386E Spannzangen NEU Weiler Drehmaschine | eBay .

Cheers,
Bruce
 








 
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