time for a new lathe, but which one? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post
    NB: Hoping the HBX-360-BC has a similar panache
    Did you get one of those ? If so, do you have the interesting tailstock with the wheel which the spokes pull out to enable/disable the slide ?

    I've seen some of those have 2 compounds on the cross slide as well. I don't know much about them though, to be honest.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive603 View Post
    I run a metric Smart & Brown 1024 Mk2 (VSL) myself and pretty much entirely agree with what Bill says. Except the few minutes to go from imperial to metric threading or vice versa. Standard method involves changing the stud for the transposing gear pair so the banjo has to come off first. I modified mine by bolting the transposing gear permanently to the roller bearing carrier of the standard idler gear so only the gearbox input gear needs to be changed and the banjo re-adjusted.
    Clive
    Clive - My 1024 Mk1 is an inch model, and I don't need to take the banjo off to go metric. This makes the changeover reasonably easy for me, particularly after a lot of practice. There must be some differences that make it more difficult if you start with a metric version, but I have to admit I didn't know this.

    You are absolutely right about the motor. I eventually replaced mine with a more powerful inverter rated single speed motor as part of a change to a VFD drive. It cost me blood and torn muscles getting motors in and out several times while I made a new mounting frame.

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  4. #63
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    Bill

    Brave man for doing the inverter drive change. I'd not care to take the motor and drive assembly out of mine and that's a much smaller and lighter unit. Still precious little room to spare tho'. Did a motor change on a model L once. Even more cramped. That was like playing super heavyweight solitaire.

    MK 2 1024 in both metric and imperial versions has a large roller or ball bearing inside the standard idler gear in the drop train. Hence the stud won't take the compound transposing gear. Makes for a smooth drive and no worries about bush wear. Gears are (almost) a standard off the shelf size from HPC which is nice if some are missing. HPC ones are just a touch narrower.

    Clive
    Last edited by Clive603; 04-21-2017 at 11:44 AM.

  5. #64
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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    So been reading all this with some interest....Pretty wide requirement list...So thought i would interject my 2 cents worth....
    I think your reasoning and suggestion of a Colchester 13" or 15" is very sound. What you are describing is probably the right approach for me.

    There is a 15" Colchester Triumph 2000 available a few hundred km away from me. It is the short bed version with a removable gap. If it has not been repainted then it ought to be low wear, because the paint is in good shape. It's on a dealer's lot, which in Germany tends to indicate that it does not have significant mechanical issues.

    I have read through the Triumph 2000 manuals available online, and found that the early version lathes appear to have had a foot-operated brake as you describe, but the later version ones eliminated the foot control and the brake was only operated by a hand lever. This one has no foot brake visible in the photos.

    I will try and take a look at this lathe in the next week or two. The price is reasonable, and as far as I can see, the only spec of mine that is not met is that the support is only partially oiled by a one-shot built-in pump, there are some oil points that need by-hand treatment. I can certainly live with that.

    As you said, the gearbox does indeed permit all the standard metric and inch threads to be cut without moving any changewheels or putting in a transposing gear. (It does not have a 127 tooth gear in the gearbox, but uses other combinations to get close enough that in practice it would be off by just a few microns over a few hundred mm, less than typical thermal expansion.)

    As you wrote, the spindle bore is 6" Camlock D1, but I have not been able to confirm the Jarno internal taper. I expect that one can find a 5C-Jarno adaptor, but have not searched to see if it's true.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Hi Bruce
    Just because you said you can spend 10k...
    Cazeneuve Optica 36 22 cnc lathe - Troostwijk

    I can't stop looking that beauty....


    best regards
    Kyriakos

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    Historically Colchester tended to use truncated Morse tapers in the spindle. Truncated both ends too so figuring out what you actually had could be difficult.

    If that was still the case with the Triumph 2000 a cut down Morse 6 seems a likely candidate, Best of luck telling the difference between that and a section of Jarno 18. Less than 2 thou per inch difference.

    Might be worth investigating offerings from the makers of lever collet closers to see if suitable spare part can be got at less than factory prices. Factory spindle nose bushings alway seem to be lunatic expensive..

    Or just mount up an external chuck on a D1-6 backplate. If you only need to hold round work a Bernerd Mutisize system might work out less costly. Typically £300-£400 on E-Bay for little used sets.

    Clive

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    Bruce:
    Some additional thoughts on the Colcheaster:

    First off Clive makes a good point on the spindle internal taper...Think an E-mail to someone like Royal products who made the 5-c setup i have at work on my Colchester would settle the taper question.
    Looked at the machine manual and no mention of the taper.
    Royal no longer makes a manual closer , but the spindle adapter will be the same whether powered or manual....

    As to lubrication....At least on my 15" Colchester at work, there are indeed manual ball type oil fittings on the carriage...However...those are there as "Backup" .
    The one shot lube pump that is fitted to the face of the apron lubes all carriage lube points , given that all is in proper working condition.....
    There are no other lube points on the entire machine....All idler gearing at the machine back are fitted with sealed/shielded ball bearings....
    Head stock gears clutches and spindle bearings are all lubed via an oil pump that runs constantly when the main motor is on...Oil is supplied to the head stock from a "dry Sump" style oil tank.and returns to same via a drain in the bottom....
    Quick change box has its own sump .

    Additional notes...One of the great features of this machine is the long cross feed travel. The cross slide is wide and ground flat which allows back side tooling to be fitted and used, or that surface can be used for special setups and holding...(line boring etc)

    Was not aware on the exclusion of the foot brake...that is really too bad. The foot brake is one feature i really like and you grow to depend on ....

    Be aware that late versions of this machine i believe were built in Asia....Can't say anything about the fit and finish of the machines that were built outside of the UK....All is can say is that mine is fine, good fit and
    finish, and it has been drop dead reliable.....

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominus164 View Post
    Hi Bruce
    Just because you said you can spend 10k...
    Cazeneuve Optica 36 22 cnc lathe - Troostwijk

    I can't stop looking that beauty....


    best regards
    Kyriakos


    Cazeneuve control made by ?????????...What could go wrong...
    Cheers Ross

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    I have the later version Triumph 2000 with the electric brake controlled by start lever. Now I'd prefer a foot brake but didn't know any better at the time.

    Lucky7

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    G'day Ballen,

    On the Holbrook Forum (Yahoo, a Holbrook Minor Lathe has just come up for sale.

    Might be worth a look at, but I think you had better be quick.

    Regards

    Quentin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monarchist View Post



    "The French are a most peculiar race..." feet, faces, and apparently machine-tools as well... Good cheese makers, though, so have earned the benefit of any doubts.
    Hi All,

    Vive le difference! Having a holiday home in France i`ve looked for a lathe there and found that second hand French products do tend to be idiosyncratic and extremely expensive to buy! French cheese is ok by me but her indoors won`t let me keep the ripe Brie in the fridge! My French neighbours love a bit of very mature British Cheddar and I have to bring them Aberdeen Angus steaks when I come from a visit to the UK, not forgetting a decent bottle of Whisky as well!

    Well, the boys have all been throwing their fantasy lathe keys on the bar, which set is going to be picked up I wonder? Bruce threw a list of wants at us but surely the most important consideration is what he actually wants to machine on this all singing and dancing lathe that probably doesn`t exist! If we knew this we could probably make more sensible and accurate suggestions.

    Colchester lathes were made by pipe smoking blokes called Bill that went down the pub for lunch but as Clive suggested, the lathes are now made in a country where the workers slurp noodles and live on a handfull of rice a day!

    Addressing the collet situation and the 5c requirement, nobody has mentioned that collets that are mounted in the bore of the spindle actually restrict the diameter of the longer lengths of material that need to be held within the spindle itself!

    Clive mentioned Bernerd collet chucks, these are held in the case of the Colchester, externally on a camlock backplate, or are purpose made with the backplate and chuck combined which reduces the overhang. They also have a quick change type available for repetition work. No draw bar is necessary as the collets are tightened by a gear system similar to Jacobs chucks.

    There are various ranges of Burnerd collets up to 2 1/2" diameter the most useful range is the "C" range which is seamless from 1/16" to 1 1/2" diameter using just twelve collets and can handle square and hexagon material using a dedicated collet.

    dscn2376.jpg

    Here is a boxed set of Burnerd "EC" Multisize collets, I don`t just talk about them, I use them!

    My money is firmly plonked down on Colchester and yes! I did have a nice square head Student once!

    Alan

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    With the requirements being so strict you have a very select range of lathes and most even mentioned don't fit the requirements. My weiler I've got to say is a decent lathe but it's not the best lathe out there. You have to change gears on the weiler matador and it can be confusing sometimes. Sag 12 lathes are nice but are known to have electrical problems, and that's why I don't own one. Schaublins seem like your best bet but I don't know they're going rate over in Europe. Holbrooks are wonderful lathes in most aspects but lack in some ways. Dsg lathes are the same, and maybe a tiny bit better imo in some ways. Cazeneuve lathes seem wonderful and look like they would fit the list of requirements for the most part. There is no perfect lathe really and that's why most people own 2-3 lathes at least. I didn't mention any American lathes because the likelihood of finding a rivett, monarch, nebel microturn etc is very low in Europe.

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  20. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chknives View Post
    With the requirements being so strict you have a very select range of lathes and most even mentioned don't fit the requirements.
    Following this discussion, I think my best bet is to look at "pre-China-manufacture" Colchester Master 2500 and Colchester Triumph 2000 lathes. Going down my list of requirements:

    Price - Used, these sell for 3-6kE, including reasonable amounts of tooling.

    Center height - Either 6.5" = 165mm or 7.5" = 190mm

    Center-to-center length - Both 25" = 635mm and 40" = 1000 mm available

    "Toolroom" precision (~1 ton) - Weights are in the 700-1200 kg range. While these may not be the very top lathes ever made, after reviewing the test protocol used by Colchester, I think these would be enough of a step up from my Logan 10" that they would make me pretty happy.

    Spindle bore at least 35mm - 40 or 54mm respectively

    Spindle not threaded - These have Camlock D1-4" or D1-6"

    Spindle bearings and gearing lubricated via oil bath/pump system - Yes, the gearbox is sealed and splash lubricated from a sump. The headstock has an oil pump that circulates oil from a separate sump. The apron has its own integral lubrication oil reservoir.

    Speeds up to 2000 rpm (2500 or 3000 would be better) - Yes, as the name implies, top speeds are respectively 2500 and 2000 rpm.

    Flame- or induction-hardened bed - Yes

    Long enough compound - Yes 100 and 120mm respectively

    Powerful enough - Typically 5HP = 3.5kW

    Can cut both standard inch AND standard metric threads via gearbox shifters, without adding/swapping change gears - Yes, no swapping of changegears needed for the most widely used inch and metric threads. Others available with changewheels.

    Vary speed via gearbox and back-gear shifters - Yes, no pulley swapping needed

    Nice operating "feel" - Yes, as described by Ross, especially when equipped with a foot brake

    Integrated coolant pump/collection - Yes

    Automatic or one-shot lubrication system for the ways - Yes, hand-pump on apron

    Designed to mount 3-axis DRO - I have seen these with both 2 and 3-axis DROs mounted.

    Parts easily available in Germany - Parts are available both from the manufacturer and from used outlets/used machine dealers and from Ebay

    Operates from standard German 400V 50Hz 3-phase power - Yes

    Noise/Vibration (forgotten in my original requirements list, but important) - If gearing is in good shape, this is acceptable

    So to me it seems that the Colchester Triumph 2000 and Master 2500 would be good choices for me. No, it's not a Schaublin, but as Ross has argued, it's probably the best compromise for my needs.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 04-24-2017 at 11:18 AM.

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  22. #74
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    Strongly encourage you to make a personal evaluation visit to any potential machine....
    As has been states above, the one real issue with the Colchester lathes is that the head stock gearing "Can"
    be noisy.
    Not a big deal in a working shop environment ..but in the relative quiet of a small one man shop it might be a deal breaker.....
    Cheers Ross

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    Ive got to back up what Ross has just said about checking Colchesters out carefully.

    One thing that you already know is that Triumphs are a fair bit bigger than some of the lathes that you had been considering. That is fine, and may be just what you want, but some jobs like changing big chucks gets a lot more muscular with this size of lathe. Personally I use a jib crane these days for that kind of work. Having said that they are bigger, the weights that you quote are similar to or less than my Smart & Brown (1180kg), a much smaller machine.

    It is essential that you run them through all speeds and feeds and screwcutting. Listen carefully. If you get loud gear noise I would avoid them. Other noises may mean other problems (obviously) but belt noise is common and not a serious issue. Check that the oil in the headstock has not been changed to a higher viscosity to make it quiet. If it has, the spindle bearings will suffer and the cost of those makes the lathe a write-off. Crude, quick tests of the spindle bearings are a good idea if you can.

    Check clutch and brake operation. These can be misadjusted and they can wear. Replacement parts are available, but expensive.

    Check the carriage movement along the bed with the leadscrew nut engaged using the carriage hand wheel. Even with irregular use, the half nuts seems to wear, but replacements are available. Check the leadscrew doesn't look peaky worn anywhere.

    The aprons suffer from coolant getting in and rotting out expensive parts (gears, shafts, needle roller bearings...). If you can, check that there is oil in there, not water. You can't do this by looking at the oil level window - this may show oil with the water under it.

    Check the ways just in front of the chuck. Any appreciable ridge (fingernail test) on the inside of the front shear is a tell tale for heavy use and wear generally.

    I'm assuming that you have three phase supply for your workshop. If not you may need to think about the ease or otherwise of supplying the motors that are probably fitted. In UK a Triumph might have 7.5 kW or more, certainly bigger than you quote. This takes them a bit outside of the range where a cheap VFD installation is the obvious solution. It can still be done, but not as easily/cheaply.

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  26. #76
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    So I can take off the reservation on my Maho Graziano then

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    So I can take off the reservation on my Maho Graziano then

    Peter
    Hi Ballen,

    Please rethink the Maho Graziano from Peter.

    I have bought last year a Graziano SAG 12 from Peter and it is a top class machine and the spindle bore is 41 mm + the natural sack gives you the opportunity to make large diameter flanges.

    And the Maho Graziano from Peter is Deckel family!

    I did not choose this machine because of the budget but it is in pristine state. You will love it.

    And Peter is the specialist in this kind of precision machines.

    Best regards,

    Michael

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    Hi All,

    Billmac posted some very relevant advice when purchasing a Colchester.

    My own personal experience with buying Colchesters some years ago, when I was importing second hand machines into Norway from the UK, is that dealers and private sellers can be very devious!

    On one occasion I went to view a Colchester Student at a dealers workshop in Stroud, Gloucestershire. The machine had a catchplate fitted to the spindle instead of the ubiquitous three jaw! I queried this and was given some brush off excuse but when I insisted that the machine be run on top speed, it grated and howled like a banshee. Despite this I still bought it and when i stripped it down I found that the gear teeth on the drive for top speed were almost non existent! The wear was caused by an original design fault where the gear was too small for purpose and thus overstressed!
    I bought a new gear shaft from a contact in the UK, fitted this and still made a hefty profit.

    Colchester lathes are easy to work on and not fiddly like other machines that I could mention, oops did I say Deckel!

    What irritated me was this brazen attempt to hide the fault by the dealer insulted the intelligence of the potential purchaser.

    Another dealer`s trick to maximise profit is to buy a machine that is fully loaded with accessories and sell the accessories off separately.

    For your own fiscal good health it`s important to carry out the appropriate checks before buying and as for buying on the internet, buying without inspecting the machine is the joy of dealers, they can sell rubbish and have anoraks bidding well over the market price. I`ve bought three machines for my workshop sight unseen on fleabay and they have all been compromised! Well you can always send them back for a refund but remember you are liable for the return costs and the dealers know that this will, in most cases, inhibit the return of the heavy machinery.

    Alan

  30. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Following this discussion, I think my best bet is to look at "pre-China-manufacture" Colchester Master 2500 and Colchester Triumph 2000 lathes. Going down my list of requirements:

    Price - Used, these sell for 3-6kE, including reasonable amounts of tooling.

    Center height - Either 6.5" = 165mm or 7.5" = 190mm

    Center-to-center length - Both 25" = 635mm and 40" = 1000 mm available

    "Toolroom" precision (~1 ton) - Weights are in the 700-1200 kg range. While these may not be the very top lathes ever made, after reviewing the test protocol used by Colchester, I think these would be enough of a step up from my Logan 10" that they would make me pretty happy.

    Spindle bore at least 35mm - 40 or 54mm respectively

    Spindle not threaded - These have Camlock D1-4" or D1-6"

    Spindle bearings and gearing lubricated via oil bath/pump system - Yes, the gearbox is sealed and splash lubricated from a sump. The headstock has an oil pump that circulates oil from a separate sump. The apron has its own integral lubrication oil reservoir.

    Speeds up to 2000 rpm (2500 or 3000 would be better) - Yes, as the name implies, top speeds are respectively 2500 and 2000 rpm.

    Flame- or induction-hardened bed - Yes

    Long enough compound - Yes 100 and 120mm respectively

    Powerful enough - Typically 5HP = 3.5kW

    Can cut both standard inch AND standard metric threads via gearbox shifters, without adding/swapping change gears - Yes, no swapping of changegears needed for the most widely used inch and metric threads. Others available with changewheels.

    Vary speed via gearbox and back-gear shifters - Yes, no pulley swapping needed

    Nice operating "feel" - Yes, as described by Ross, especially when equipped with a foot brake

    Integrated coolant pump/collection - Yes

    Automatic or one-shot lubrication system for the ways - Yes, hand-pump on apron

    Designed to mount 3-axis DRO - I have seen these with both 2 and 3-axis DROs mounted.

    Parts easily available in Germany - Parts are available both from the manufacturer and from used outlets/used machine dealers and from Ebay

    Operates from standard German 400V 50Hz 3-phase power - Yes

    Noise/Vibration (forgotten in my original requirements list, but important) - If gearing is in good shape, this is acceptable

    So to me it seems that the Colchester Triumph 2000 and Master 2500 would be good choices for me. No, it's not a Schaublin, but as Ross has argued, it's probably the best compromise for my needs.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Having gone through the manual now, I'd also suggest the Cazenueve HBX-360 series come off your list - if ever they were even on it.

    Complex to the degree that by the time you figure out what settings are wanted to do the do, the workday may be over!

    I mean.. levers to select 550 thread options "Whitworth" or Metric?

    Even "Le Grand Charles" thought it hard to govern a country with 400 types of cheese!



    Seconding the SAG Graziano, though. Those seem well-regarded as to being WORTH any effort invested.

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    It´s indeed a rational and relevant condensation you´ve done.

    Of the two I´d opt for the Triumph in 40 or 50 inch length. Larger hole, swing and turning length - still at a very reasonale weight for a homeshop. That trade for lower speed would be my personal choice.

    If not, I´d think Peters graziano Maho should be a very tough competitor to any short bed Master in any condition.

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