understanding an Fp1

good evening

firstly my apologies for not posting much and being an active member,
I admit I'm more of a taker on this site... but at least I'm honest :-)
part of it is I don't have much knowledge to contribute...

with that said, I'm looking for some assistance -
my background is in manufacturing operations management, I was a CAD/CAM engineer, and have managed CNC aerospace machine shops, but I'm not a machinist.

I'm a part time knife maker blade smith going full-time. The first machine I bought was a Burke Millrite MVN with DRO and power feed. It was a excellent and it hurt to sell especially since I got it for $800 delivered.

anyway, I'm setting up my new shop and came across a local Deckel. I went and looked at it today and it will be put under power for me this weekend. I will run it with a phase convertor since I don't have 3 phase,

I asked two machinists I know and they both said these are extremely high quality machines and good for short run production and versatility.

my use of the mill on knife making is actually very little but I like good quality equipment if I can. I mill slots, cut grooves, some face milling etc. But I prefer to overbuy if I can and have more capability than I need. A mill is handy for slip joint folders

these pics are from the seller's ad.
I'm attracted by the smaller size and table layout

my question is how is this FP1 different than your standard Bridgeport style mill (in terms of practical use) and what does the higher price offer me? And if you can lay any other knowledge on me it's most appreciated.
more questions -
Does the vertical spindle head move out of the way to use the horizontal spindle? Does the horizontal use the same collets? To move the ram back and forth, is there some geared mechanism?
What is the purpose of the black wheel in the back?

regards
Harbeer

It's what Owen Wood, one of the World's top knife makers uses at his shop in Colorado.

About Owen – Owen Wood Design

No the vertical spindle has to come off to use the horizontal. Yes they use the same collets. The ram moves by a bevel gear arrangement and if correctly set up moves pretty smoothly. The black wheel can be used to rotate the spindle drive when the motor is off though I have never used it for that.

Looks like it is missing the crank for the ram and the cover underneath the ram. Are there no MT4 holders or the parts for the horizontal arm?

bcstractor said:

It's what Owen Wood, one of the World's top knife makers uses at his shop in Colorado.

About Owen – Owen Wood Design

No the vertical spindle has to come off to use the horizontal. Yes they use the same collets. The ram moves by a bevel gear arrangement and if correctly set up moves pretty smoothly. The black wheel can be used to rotate the spindle drive when the motor is off though I have never used it for that.

Looks like it is missing the crank for the ram and the cover underneath the ram. Are there no MT4 holders or the parts for the horizontal arm?

Click to expand...

thanks so much
here is the other box of tooling
I don't know that I will use the horizontal spindle...

I will ask about the crank for the ram,

my understanding is this machine has been in storage unused for 10 years?
It's coming out of an automation systems integreator company.

HSC /// said:

my understanding is this machine has been in storage unused for 10 years?
It's coming out of an automation systems integreator company.

View attachment 211318

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Unless you can inspect it thoroughly AND it's real cheap, avoid it. They're RUBBISH. They were rubbish new and din't get any better 70 years down the line. I suggest you get a new BP clone of smaller size with horiz. spindle. You want a machine you can immediately work with, not a "project" which will take 5 years to fix and for which fundamental spares are not available. Like head gears or spindle bearings. That small size which seems appealing now it's very crippling in a number of areas. Look for a late Maho 400 with the univ. table with optical readouts. Parts are available ( pricey !) and when you'll sell it, you'll turn a profit. That's in case you want "German" . Now, sit back and watch how a couple of amateurs will chew my head off.

HSC /// said:

good evening

firstly my apologies for not posting much and being an active member,
I admit I'm more of a taker on this site... but at least I'm honest :-)
part of it is I don't have much knowledge to contribute...

with that said, I'm looking for some assistance -
my background is in manufacturing operations management, I was a CAD/CAM engineer, and have managed CNC aerospace machine shops, but I'm not a machinist.

I'm a part time knife maker blade smith going full-time. The first machine I bought was a Burke Millrite MVN with DRO and power feed. It was a excellent and it hurt to sell especially since I got it for $800 delivered.

anyway, I'm setting up my new shop and came across a local Deckel. I went and looked at it today and it will be put under power for me this weekend. I will run it with a phase convertor since I don't have 3 phase,

I asked two machinists I know and they both said these are extremely high quality machines and good for short run production and versatility.

my use of the mill on knife making is actually very little but I like good quality equipment if I can. I mill slots, cut grooves, some face milling etc. But I prefer to overbuy if I can and have more capability than I need. A mill is handy for slip joint folders

these pics are from the seller's ad.
I'm attracted by the smaller size and table layout

my question is how is this FP1 different than your standard Bridgeport style mill (in terms of practical use) and what does the higher price offer me? And if you can lay any other knowledge on me it's most appreciated.
more questions -
Does the vertical spindle head move out of the way to use the horizontal spindle? Does the horizontal use the same collets? To move the ram back and forth, is there some geared mechanism?
What is the purpose of the black wheel in the back?

regards
Harbeer

View attachment 211309View attachment 211310View attachment 211311View attachment 211312

Click to expand...

Pass on this one and buy the FP2 and accessories at the same auction!

Kevin

I have a smaller Aciera FP2 as well as an F1 Deckel. The tghing I like about the Euro style mills is it allows me to get close which is important for the instrument and mechanical work I do on them. The integrated coolant and power feed on the Deckel is quite nice as well. The vertical head on the Deckel is powered by the main motor which means a lot more HP at the spindle then one would get with a Bridgeport style mill. The horizontal spindle can be used to drill or mill the end of long pieces that might not be possible to work on a standard turret mill. Then there is all the accesories... I would think the tilting table would be real handy for a knifemaker. It did take me a while to tool up my Deckel

Todd

Some points to clear up:

First off you asked about the "ram" and how its moved....
Need first to know what you define as the "ram"....
On a BOP, the ram is the casting that supports the vertical head and can be moved to change the position where the vertical head is located for work.

On that vintage Deckel (early, second gen) there is no movable "ram" as the term is used with a BP! The upper casting that carries the vertical head mounts to the
"Y" slide and that top casting sits in one position only....It is removed to work horizontal. The mounting area is also the seat for the Deckel accessories such as the high speed head, FP1 Riser and Precision boring head,
slotting head, corner milling attachment and angle head ......

The part below is the "Y" slide..that is your "Y" axis or cross travel...It like the other two axis of movement ("X" and "Z") are moved via lead screws that are fitted as one would expect with micrometer collars....
Deckels came in two flavors...Inch and Metric...Dials rulers and screws to match...

That machine is early and likely has a plain bearing spindle both horizontal and vertical....Not a problem but most folks would favor a later anti friction bearing setup (needle roller bearings) that the later machines employed....
Spindles on both horizontal and vertical on that machine are both the same that being a #4 Morse taper...
Again not an issue , but tooling is a bit tougher to find and one must be aware of the possibility of holders getting stuck in the taper (self holding)

That machine has power feeds in both the vertical "Z" and the long travel"X"...none on the "Y".
Table is angle adjustable...so the table tilts front to back and side to side along with rotating.....sort of like a universal angle vise....

Working position is from the side and some folks have difficulty getting used to this change in working position if they have spent serious time running a more conventional setup machine,,,,,

Small envelope, but robust in construction if in good shape , will reward the user with effortless heavy cuts (if needed) and accuracy.

Disregard the flippant comments of "Alex O". Unhappy Maho owner, he likes to throw BS just for the effect...Think it makes him feel better somehow, perhaps it allows him forget about his own poor machine choice. (Sorry no amateur here, and yes my Deckels do work for a living, every day!)

Parts are readily available , but the source is in Germany (Singer) and they like all quality machine spares are not cheap....

Don't discount the horizontal spindle.....can think of some uses for a knife maker.....For example a blade that has been shaped on the perimeter (irregular) and you need to drill holes through the tang for
a handle.....Well clamp the blade in the vise and drill your holes using the horizontal spindle....easy to hold the blade clamped on the flat direction....

Someone above mentioned an FP2......IMO a better machine with additional features......Roller bearing spindles,wider spindle speed range, power feed on all three axis,, with rapids, Horizontal sensitive quill (hand feed like the vertical quill) and a big plus, #40 taper spindles!

For my money i would go for the FP2 if it were available even if a significantly higher initial investment...Larger travels, with little extra space requirement...

Oh and one additional note...most Deckels drive the feed off the spindle, so the main motor must be running to use the feeds/rapids.....Also that early machine won't be able to run in reverse so no power tapping unless you use a tapping head....Going in reverse will disable the power feeds..

FP1 is a small package...be sure it has enough range of movement for your uses...Its a small machine!

Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA said:

Some points to clear up:

First off you asked about the "ram" and how its moved....
Need first to know what you define as the "ram"....


Cheers Ross

Click to expand...

thank you very much

I meant can the Y slide back and forth, meaning the top portion where the vertical spindle head is. I realize the Y table moves +/-

so at what price is the machine worth getting? $1800? $1500?

AlexO said:

Now, sit back and watch how a couple of amateurs will chew my head off.

Click to expand...

*yawn*. Amateur. Pro. BFD. Who cares. And why bother?

FWIW-not-much-department?

You think Deckel parts are scarce? Try rebuilding a U.S. Machine Tool "Quartet". Can't even get lube information on those.

AlfaGTA said:

Some points to clear up:

First off you asked about the "ram" and how its moved....
Need first to know what you define as the "ram"....
On a BOP, the ram is the casting that supports the vertical head and can be moved to change the position where the vertical head is located for work.

On that vintage Deckel (early, second gen) there is no movable "ram" as the term is used with a BP! The upper casting that carries the vertical head mounts to the
"Y" slide and that top casting sits in one position only....It is removed to work horizontal. The mounting area is also the seat for the Deckel accessories such as the high speed head, FP1 Riser and Precision boring head,
slotting head, corner milling attachment and angle head ......

The part below is the "Y" slide..that is your "Y" axis or cross travel...It like the other two axis of movement ("X" and "Z") are moved via lead screws that are fitted as one would expect with micrometer collars....
Deckels came in two flavors...Inch and Metric...Dials rulers and screws to match...

That machine is early and likely has a plain bearing spindle both horizontal and vertical....Not a problem but most folks would favor a later anti friction bearing setup (needle roller bearings) that the later machines employed....
Spindles on both horizontal and vertical on that machine are both the same that being a #4 Morse taper...
Again not an issue , but tooling is a bit tougher to find and one must be aware of the possibility of holders getting stuck in the taper (self holding)

That machine has power feeds in both the vertical "Z" and the long travel"X"...none on the "Y".
Table is angle adjustable...so the table tilts front to back and side to side along with rotating.....sort of like a universal angle vise....

Working position is from the side and some folks have difficulty getting used to this change in working position if they have spent serious time running a more conventional setup machine,,,,,

Small envelope, but robust in construction if in good shape , will reward the user with effortless heavy cuts (if needed) and accuracy.

Disregard the flippant comments of "Alex O". Unhappy Maho owner, he likes to throw BS just for the effect...Think it makes him feel better somehow, perhaps it allows him forget about his own poor machine choice. (Sorry no amateur here, and yes my Deckels do work for a living, every day!)

Parts are readily available , but the source is in Germany (Singer) and they like all quality machine spares are not cheap....

Don't discount the horizontal spindle.....can think of some uses for a knife maker.....For example a blade that has been shaped on the perimeter (irregular) and you need to drill holes through the tang for
a handle.....Well clamp the blade in the vise and drill your holes using the horizontal spindle....easy to hold the blade clamped on the flat direction....

Someone above mentioned an FP2......IMO a better machine with additional features......Roller bearing spindles,wider spindle speed range, power feed on all three axis,, with rapids, Horizontal sensitive quill (hand feed like the vertical quill) and a big plus, #40 taper spindles!

For my money i would go for the FP2 if it were available even if a significantly higher initial investment...Larger travels, with little extra space requirement...

Oh and one additional note...most Deckels drive the feed off the spindle, so the main motor must be running to use the feeds/rapids.....Also that early machine won't be able to run in reverse so no power tapping unless you use a tapping head....Going in reverse will disable the power feeds..

FP1 is a small package...be sure it has enough range of movement for your uses...Its a small machine!

Cheers Ross

Click to expand...

Well, I respect your opinion though to my mind you are an amateur with some exposure. No hard feelings, I hope. Notice how many things that machine doesn't do compared to an FP2 or the much better MAHO400. Give the gentleman some idea of certain spare part prices and don't forget to mention how worn out that machine can be - a box of rattles basically. Do not throw BS just because you happen to like German machines - give all the details so that the OP has some idea what's he spending HIS money on and how much more he might still have to spend.

Bottom line is that I am right - it's RUBBISH.

AlexO said:

Well, I respect your opinion though to my mind you are an amateur with some exposure.

Click to expand...

?? LOL! Picked the wrong Pilgrim on that one Alex. He probably has more Deckel "exposure" - most especially clever pushing of alleged limits - than any other ten men still above-ground and not cremated.



But that does tell me more than was asked for about your "mind".

Value is hard to access...What its worth to you will surely be different form what i would pay for same....
Factors are:
Condition, Condition,Condition......Does this fit your needs/wants
Need to evaluate how much wear is present and how hard its been used over its life...(not just the last stop before your station)

Additional factor would be proximity...for some moving or paying for rigging and transport weighs highly.....

FP1 in moderate condition of that vintage i would value somewhere in the $2000.-2500 range.
Pay more if it "speaks to you" ..if you get it for less...good deal unless its clapped out....


FP2 first gen...value somewhere between $5,000. and 10,000 depending on condition....Value rises relative to cost when the tooling is dense....

Cheers Ross

Monarchist said:

You think Deckel parts are scarce?

Click to expand...

Yes. I used to trade in spare parts for Deckel/Maho and I have a good idea. And some spare parts including critical ones like spindles, needle bearings, head gears, ram gears etc etc. Those machines used to be very common here in RSA. I used to see a lot of them and have a good idea how worn they are. Can they be fixed ? Sure. But do you want a project or a machine to use and make stuff with ?

Monarchist said:

?? LOL! Picked the wrong Pilgrim on that one Alex. He probably has more Deckel "exposure" - most especially clever pushing of alleged limits - than any other ten men still above-ground and not cremated.



But that does tell me more than was asked for about your "mind".

Click to expand...

No, he does not. It's just you don't know many people with "Deckel exposure". BIG difference. He is a very smart man, very competent and very talented. "Deckel exposure" by the standards of a German rebuilder, nope.

AlexO said:

Well, I respect your opinion though to my mind you are an amateur with some exposure. No hard feelings, I hope. Notice how many things that machine doesn't do compared to an FP2 or the much better MAHO400. Give the gentleman some idea of certain spare part prices and don't forget to mention how worn out that machine can be - a box of rattles basically. Do not throw BS just because you happen to like German machines - give all the details so that the OP has some idea what's he spending HIS money on and how much more he might still have to spend.

Bottom line is that I am right - it's RUBBISH.

Click to expand...

Alex thanks for your input,

It’s true I dont want a project, I need to hit the ground running.
I worked at an investment casting foundry for 12 years and we had 2 Maho MH 400 so I’m familiar with them.

There are many factors for me in a purchase. Time, availability, price, delivery concerns, power requirements , moving into my location access and more.

Any purchase is a compromise of all. I’m aware I can choose from a dozen Bridgeport knee mills in the Los Angeles area.

The machine is a few miles from me so i went to check it out. It has some features I like but I’m not married to anything

Regards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HSC /// said:

Alex thanks for your input,

It’s true I dont want a project, I need to hit the ground running.
I worked at an investment casting foundry for 12 years and we had 2 Maho MH 400 so I’m familiar with them.

There are many factors for me in a purchase. Time, availability, price, delivery concerns, power requirements , moving into my location access and more.

Any purchase is a compromise of all. I’m aware I can choose from a dozen Bridgeport knee mills in the Los Angeles area.

The machine is a few miles from me so i went to check it out. It has some features I like but I’m not married to anything

Regards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Thank you. Sorry you've missed the 400s. But then, I did too.

AlexO said:

No, he does not. It's just you don't know many people with "Deckel exposure". BIG difference. He is a very smart man, very competent and very talented. "Deckel exposure" by the standards of a German rebuilder, nope.

Click to expand...

You are really making an ass of yourself, in case you care. You have no idea whom you are talking about.

I have 4 FP1 Deckel mills and use them regularly, also have an FP2 that I recently purchased to replace a real nice horizontal mill I sold. I can not stress enough how much I like the European style machines and this is coming from a guy that has spent nearly 40 years in an aerospace (defense contractor) machine shop running nothing but milling machines 8 hours a day. As Ross said they take a little getting used to but once there they make total sense. Things like milling and drilling with the horizontal spindle fall to hand and are fully visible when in the operating position.
The machine in the picture is missing the Y axis hand wheel, it is easy to replace though; Question there is why is it removed? It could be any number of reasons but without some thorough investigation it is questionable. It's been my experience that the machines are well built and will hold up well regardless of age as long as treated properly, if it has been abused with broken parts it may be better to keep looking for another candidate. I would remind anyone that the FP1 had roughly a 75 year span and many seemingly small changes were made, I had one with .125" travel per turn of the X axis hand wheel when all others were .100". Not a problem per say but it can make finding the right replacement parts a little iffy.
Be sure I have no interest myself in that FP1 and am not trying to scare you; I would inspect that machine closely before making any decision. It could turn out to be a real gem that give you great rewards in the work it produces and the joy of using it.
Dan

SeaMoss said:

You are really making an ass of yourself, in case you care. You have no idea whom you are talking about.

Click to expand...

No, I don't care and it's not your fucking business either. Did he ask you to jump in ??

SeaMoss said:

You are really making an ass of yourself,..

Click to expand...

No he is not. No "new work" involved.

Just "German rebuilding" what was already there...